Brad Johnson: Welcome back to another episode of Do Business. Do Life. Have Andrew Woodward here with us today. Welcome to the show, Andrew.
Andrew Woodward: Thanks for having me on, Brad.
Brad Johnson: There’s a lot of fun origin stories I’ve had from past guests, but I’m going to put yours like at the top. So, a little story as we dive in here. So, I’m out at the Waste Management Open the week before the Super Bowl, this recent Super Bowl that we’ll probably get into that, how that ended. And I get a text from Scott Hanson, Scott Hanson of NFL RedZone fame. And I met him through, he emceed a couple experiences for Triad, and he gets Super Bowl tickets because obviously he’s involved with the NFL and he knew I was a Chiefs fan and said, “Hey, you’re going to be in New Orleans,” and jokingly, I replied, “Not unless you have a ticket for me.” And he’s like, “Well, I do.”
And so, anyway, therein, I’m just like, I’m at the Waste Management Open for business. One of our carrier partners does a cool setup out there. And so, I basically fly home for a day and then I’m out the next day to go to the Super Bowl, my first Super Bowl ever. Obviously, huge Chiefs fan before everybody jumped on that bandwagon growing up. And so, then I just kind of rolling around NFL weekend with Scott Hanson which isn’t… I’m not here to brag, but I’m gonna say that’s kind of like a bucket list sort of thing, like being an NFL fan and a college football player. And so, he takes me to an Athletes First kind of pre-Super Bowl party, which is, I believe, the largest sports agency currently in the NFL. Is that right, Andrew? You’d probably know better than me.
Andrew Woodward: They’re one of the top NFL agencies. They consistently year in, year out have first-round picks. They have some of the top quarterbacks, a very reputable agency. And a lot of these agencies have parties along with a lot of other groups during Super Bowl week. And so, you never know who you’re going to meet at these events and if you look and see if that looks like a famous person, it’s going to be a famous person that you probably know. It’s the who’s who week.
Brad Johnson: Well, I was, like I said, NFL fan, and within five minutes of walking into the party, I’ve met Reggie Wayne, Ed Reed, Jordan Love, and then I see Derrick Henry just rolling around. I’m like, “Oh, this is a different sort of party. Never been to one of these before.” But anyway, so Scott and I are hanging out and he’s obviously making some connections. That’s the agency that represents him. And we roll up, and I get an introduction to you. And we just, “Hey, Brad, Andrew, nice to meet you,” and then you kind of tell me your background. And I’m like, “Whoa, this is cool.” I’ve lived in finance my whole life but essentially, you’re brokering pro sports deals, helping facilitate those on the buy-sell side. I’m like, “Wow, I’ve seen some cool alternative investments, but this might be the coolest.”
We connected, we chatted for about 30 minutes before the debacle that was the Super Bowl the next day, connected, and I was like, “Hey, it’d be really cool to have you come on the podcast,” because, number one, we’ve got a ton of sports fans that listen in. Obviously, financial advisors are going to be very interested in just the dynamics of how those deals work. And your story before that, you grew up as a sports agent under the guy that basically, Jerry Maguire, the movie, was based on. So, you got a really cool story. So, with that, that’s the lead-up, man. Where should we dive in here?
Andrew Woodward: There are so many different places to take it, but just circling back on the Super Bowl Week, it’s so interesting. And it’s probably my 10th Super Bowl Week that I attended. When I was looking for Leigh, Leigh has an annual Super Bowl party every year. It’s a Saturday daytime Super Bowl party. And he helped develop what Super Bowl Week has become. And it’s really, as Leigh would put it when I was working with him, a convention of Americana. It’s really the Davos through the sports business industry. You have commissioners of all the major sports leagues there. You have NFL owners, you have actors and actresses, current and former players. The list kind of goes on and on what Super Bowl League has developed and evolved into.
And I thoroughly enjoy it. It’s a must to be at for someone that works in the sports business industry. You never know who you’re gonna meet and really enjoyed our conversation. It was really fun to meet Scott, the Mr. NFL RedZone himself, and really enjoyed our conversation, got to know him personally, his background, what led up to the NFL RedZone, and obviously enjoyed our conversations leading up to The Super Bowl. Unfortunately, it was a tough result for the Chiefs but still got Patrick Mahomes. Better luck next year, and hopefully, they can run it back.
Brad Johnson: Well, I’ve joked with a few friends since about I know if I screw my life up, what hell’s gonna look like? Because I was literally surrounded by Eagles fans the whole time, losing my mind. And Scott’s tickets were on the Eagles sideline, and literally I was one of like three red shirts in the whole section. But, hey, they were surprisingly not unkind, so it worked out okay. And by halftime, I’m like, “All right. It’s time to just enjoy the Super Bowl for the Super Bowl, and obviously, it’s not in it for my team today, but it was still an incredible experience. And a lot of people never get that experience, so.
Andrew Woodward: My first Super Bowl was pretty similar to your experience. I got to attend Super Bowl 50. That was Peyton Manning in the Denver Broncos against the Carolina Panthers in Santa Clara. The day of the game, I get a call from a buddy of mine, “Hey, I got an extra ticket to the Super Bowl. Do you wanna come join me?” And I changed my transportation going back home, and I joined Super Bowl 50. It’s just an amazing experience of what goes and entails in the Super Bowl. And so, I’m glad you got to attend one. Hopefully, next time that’s the Chiefs hosting the Lombardi Trophy.
Brad Johnson: I don’t think anybody’s feeling sorry for me. I think the tide shifted this season, where everybody is kind of tired of the Chiefs being at the top of the podium at the end of the year. Well, let’s get into you. You’ve got a really, I think even just how you got into kind of the… How would you define like the sports agent, sports brokerage world? Is it sports entertainment? What’s the vertical? How is it defined?
Andrew Woodward: I would say that, yeah, you’re correct. It’s in the sports entertainment vertical, athlete representation, sports agencies, agencies carry, and a lot of different services. We specifically focused when I was working for Leigh at Steinberg Sports & Entertainment player representation, which included the marketing contracts as well as the on-field contracts. But, yeah, I started my career figuring out what I want to do by doing things that I thought I wanted to do, and during that time realize this is not the field for me. I went to school at Baylor University, got my undergrad and graduate degree there. I thought I wanted to be an athletic director.
During that time, I got my undergraduate master’s in sports management, worked in the athletic department in a variety of different roles. During the end of my tenure there, Leigh came and spoke to our university. He was on a book tour with his book, The Agent, and strategically selected universities and campuses that had pretty good football programs and so that he could do a little bit of recruiting, very much so of the Trojan horse mentality. And so, this was when Leigh was building back his practice. Just for some context for the listeners that maybe aren’t as familiar with Leigh, as you mentioned, Leigh was the inspiration for the movie Jerry Maguire, where Cameron Crowe followed Leigh for an entire year and wrote the movie, Jerry Maguire. And I’ve actually held…
Brad Johnson: Wow. I didn’t know that the literal writer of Jerry Maguire is following him around for a year. So, it’s heavily based on him.
Andrew Woodward: Yes. And Leigh’s actually in the movie. I’ve actually held an original Jerry Maguire script in my hands. So, it’s obviously developed and evolved. Everybody knows, “Show me the money.” Not a speech goes by that Leigh or somebody says, “Show me the money,” and so obviously that thing was seen from Rod Tidwell there.
Brad Johnson: Okay. Now, I have to ask, Andrew, did he also do the legit, “Who’s coming with me?” Like, did he leave a firm and like walk out the door? Was that based on a true story or was that just Hollywood?
Andrew Woodward: That was a little bit of the Hollywood there, but there are some, obviously, tea leaves that were authentic to Leigh’s story and obviously his background there. And so, there are some very similar parallels, but obviously, you got to have some Hollywood magic there, too, as well.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, let’s get in. So, my understanding, so Leigh comes and speaks at the university. You’re a student at the time. And I think there’s a cool lesson in how you landed your first job. So, tell me how that played out.
Andrew Woodward: Yes, definitely. And so, when Leigh speaks to a group of students or any type of speaking events, one of the main questions that he gets is how to get a job in sports. It’s such a competitive industry. So many young individuals and students and young professionals want to work in the sports industry. And Leigh always uses a story from one of his former partners how this individual got hired by submitting his application of creating a mock Sports Illustrated. And this individual wrote articles and Photoshop pictures of them together on how they were successful, and Leigh hired that individual and ended up becoming a partner.
And while Leigh was telling that story while I was at Baylor, the wheels kind of got turning, “Hey, Leigh’s not just an agent. He’s his own brand in itself. As an aspiring sports professional, it would be an incredible experience to work and learn under Leigh.” And so, to back up that story, Leigh’s favorite beverage is Diet Dr Pepper. And Dr Pepper originated in Waco, Texas. There’s the Dr Pepper Museum just down the road from the University. And we took Leigh as part of our cohort to the museum. And he was a kid in a candy shop. He absolutely loved it. And so, for my application and to separate myself from the competition, I Photoshopped a logo for a Diet Dr Pepper bottle. And instead of Diet Dr Pepper, it said Leigh Steinberg.
And Leigh established his practice in 1975 when he represented the number one overall pick in the draft, his friend Steve Bartkowski, instead of when Diet Dr Pepper was established. And on the background, I put in ingredients and characteristics that I could bring to the table and Leigh hired me. And so, I started as an intern and worked my way to Leigh’s right-hand man and director of marketing for Steinberg Sports & Entertainment. And so, I did that for about three and a half years.
Brad Johnson: Well, there’s a lesson in life. As one of my friends says, put a scratch in the record. And that hits a little different than a typical resume. So, I know like when we talked, you actually held up the bottle. Do you have it there close by?
Andrew Woodward: I do. I have a backup copy. Leigh has one on his desk, so this is the backup copy.
Brad Johnson: Can you hold it a little closer?
Andrew Woodward: I use that just for inspiration.
Brad Johnson: Who’s in the picture there?
Andrew Woodward: That’s me and Leigh.
Brad Johnson: Oh, that’s you. So, that was when he came and visited. Okay. And then on the back, can you turn it around there?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. It’s a little dented here, but…
Brad Johnson: It looks like it’s got a few years on it, that bottle.
Andrew Woodward: For sure. Yes.
Brad Johnson: What year was that?
Andrew Woodward: That would have been in 2014. So, we got 11 years on this. You don’t want to drink this.
Brad Johnson: That’s what a decade-old Dr Pepper looks like.
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. I think I just keep it on my desk, inspiration to always think creatively, just a reminder of what’s gotten me to this point in my career, always to think outside the box. And that’s one of the strengths that I bring to the table. And so, Leigh talks about that now in his speeches and was honored to work with him. And I learned so much from working for Leigh. Like I mentioned, it wasn’t just an agency. Leigh’s his own brand in itself. During that time, Leigh had his own podcast. I would help run that podcast. I mentioned a Super Bowl party every year leading up to that, run the Super Bowl party, and we had a couple of other projects that was involved there. And so, there was always something going on, 365, working for Leigh when I was at Steinberg Sports & Entertainment.
Brad Johnson: I can only imagine. So, let’s dive a little deeper. Well, real quick, so the back end of the Dr. Pepper story. Did Leigh get that? And like, did he call you personally like, “Andrew, bro, you went over the top”? Or what was the back end to that story?
Andrew Woodward: So, as a young 22-year-old, sometimes following up is the most important thing. I sent it off, a week went by, two weeks came by, yeah. I haven’t heard from him. And probably about two or three weeks later, I hop on Facebook, and Leigh had posted about the Diet Dr Pepper bottle and, “Look what I got.” And I haven’t heard from him, so I saw that, picked up the phone and talked to his assistant, scheduled the meeting, met with him personally, met with the other agent there at the time. So, a little foolish to not follow up right away.
Brad Johnson: You were playing hard to get. You were planning hard to get. That’s what it was.
Andrew Woodward: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, was he based out of California? Did you hop a flight? Or where was the firm based out of?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah, he’s the Newport Beach. And so, I grew up in Orange County. I grew up in Santa Ana, which is right down the road there. And so, as I was finishing up my grad school and finishing up with my master’s, I flew back and moved back and worked in Newport Beach for a little over three years.
Brad Johnson: Cool. Okay. So, let’s get into because, I mean, this is me just making up a story in my head. But I’m picturing Leigh that’s like running on the treadmill 12 miles an hour, full speed all the time, probably two cell phones, hang up one call, pick up the other, like is that what you were dealing with out of the gates? Or what was it like?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah, it’s constant. Every day was a new day. You never know what phone call would change the trajectory of the day, whether that be a player having a contract dispute and then these three media platforms want to have Leigh on an interview to talk about that. Or we’re getting a phone call from a prospective client and, “I would like to meet. When can we meet?” And so, it was a variety of different things, and sometimes Leigh needs to be on a flight within a couple of hours, and the day did not have that scheduled to the end of the day, and we have to pivot. And so, every day was a new day.
Especially during the end of the college football season, that is kind of that crazy period because once that players ended their college career, they’re going to select an agent and wanna prepare for the NFL Draft and the Combine and the Pro Day. And so, it’s definitely seasonal in some respects but even too in the spring, we’re trying to meet with prospective clients. In the fall, you’re going to college football games. But with Leigh’s brand, it’s always constant. And so, being in the know of what’s going on not only just the NFL, but in sports in general, yeah, it was a constant ever-growing wheel of what’s going on. And you never know what would happen that day, which just makes it very exciting. And so, very common as a young professional to get going there.
Brad Johnson: It sounds like constant chaos, but kind of a fun kind of chaos.
Andrew Woodward: Organized chaos.
Brad Johnson: You’re probably getting phone calls, and then you’re seeing the story on ESPN the next day, is my guess, right?
Andrew Woodward: Very much so. Very much so.
Brad Johnson: What was the breakdown of what pro sports you all were dealing with in the league days? Percentage of NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball, what was kind of the breakout of the book of business?
Andrew Woodward: So, when I was working with Leigh, it was totally NFL. And so, when I started with him, we had four clients. I worked with him. And then the first year I was there, we had his first NFL pick in quite some time. That was Paxton Lynch with the Denver Broncos. And then, the following year, your favorite quarterback, Patrick Mahomes, the Kansas City Chiefs.
Brad Johnson: He was Mahomes’ agent? Is he still?
Andrew Woodward: That’s correct. Yeah. He still is the agent on his contract, yes, and there’s another agent, Chris Cabott, on his contract too.
Brad Johnson: Well, he sure did. So, he was part of the 10-year deal then negotiating that? Or the draft deal?
Andrew Woodward: To my knowledge, I think so. I don’t know directly on that, on the specific negotiations. I was not there at that time.
Brad Johnson: Well, if he was, he set a precedent for NFL quarterbacks, that’s for sure.
Andrew Woodward: Definitely. Worth every penny, too.
Brad Johnson: Until the last Super Bowl. No, just kidding. No, I’m done…
Andrew Woodward: That’s not bitter at all.
Brad Johnson: No, it was a sad day. I’m almost over it. So, as you’re kind of growing up in this business, and as we talked before we went live here, the audience is financial advisors all over the country. And oftentimes people are like, in our space, it’s like how do I climb the ladder of net worth? “Hey, I’m million, $2 million, $5 million, $10 million investable assets.” And a number of the listeners have done that successfully. But as you get into pro-athlete contracts, especially the big ones, now you’re getting into the multi, multi-million sort of clientele. So, what are some things, like if you were going to give a financial advisor friend a tip, and they’re like, “Hey, I’d love to explore what it would look like if I kind of wanted to break into the pro-athlete market and try to acquire clients,” I’m sure it’s different by league because there’s different rules. But how did Leigh build his brand? How did he become the guy? What sort of ways was he connecting with athletes to bring them on as clients?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. Leigh’s entire career has been relationship-driven. And during my time with Leigh, he would always stress that. His first client was a great start. He had the number one overall pick in the 1975 NFL draft, Steve Barkowski from UC Berkeley, where Leigh was finishing up law school. And so, he had that relationship with the client. And how he’s continued to build his book of business, he stayed in the Bay Area and signed a couple of Stanford players and really built out his business through those relationships. And from the financial advisor perspective with the clients that I worked with, a lot of that was relationship driven. Their families had a relationship with that financial advisor before that player got drafted, or even two. We had relationships with financial advisors that we would recommend.
And so, it’s all about that relationship as far as adding value from an agency perspective for individuals that wanna enter the industry. The advice that I give them is build the relationships with the athletes. What kind of value can you bring to the table? I think so many individuals are aspiring sports agents who want to just get started, but how are you building the relationships? How are you doing that network? What are you gonna bring to the table to be successful? It’s a little different, obviously, from the financial advisor perspective, that they’re bringing their skill set that might be a differentiator from their competitors. But if you don’t have the relationships, good luck. You’re not gonna have a shot there. And so, how do I establish a relationship?
Whether that be now, when I was working as an agent in the agency business, we were talking to players earlier on in the college years. Now, with the adventation of NIL, agents are talking to players early on in their high school years because they can sign them in college to NIL deals and have that NIL representation. And so, it’s even more front-loaded. Very rarely would we talk to a high school player because it would take another three years before we could actually sign them because of the NFL rules within the draft that you need to have at least three years before you could enter the NFL draft. And so, yeah, you have to have those relationships, or how do you have a shot at a chance of signing these players? It’s good luck.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. NIL is absolutely wild to me, how that’s changed sports so quickly. So, back to building relationships, I think a lot of people will be like, “That’s great, but how do I build a relationship with an NFL athlete?” And it sounds like what you’re saying is, well, you’ve got to do it earlier these days. But is it typically on the NIL deals, agents are brokering these for high school kids? Obviously, they’re going to be probably four and five-star sort of recruits, but are they brokering them at that? And then because, I mean, you’ve got college kids, $500K, million-dollar-plus NIL deal these days. Are they literally connecting them with an advisor right there as they’re like in high school, they’re starting to go into college? Where does that handoff start to happen?
Andrew Woodward: It’s really the Wild West with NIL. There’s no specific registrations for agents. As far as with the NFL, you have to be certified with the NFLPA to be able to represent these players when negotiating their on-field contracts or marketing deals. And so, with NIL in college, you could go negotiate a contract and charge a commission based on that endorsement deal or whatever that engagement is. Maybe it’s a speaking engagement. Their list kind of goes on and on. And so, that is not really helpful for the industry in my perspective. Obviously, there is incoming potential legislation with NIL and colleges under salary caps. But as far as those negotiations, anybody can really be an agent. And it’s a very difficult time in college athletics.
Obviously, you have hundreds, if not thousands, of athletes under your athletic program. And NIL is open and fluid. And so, it’s a very ever-changing industry. And so, it’s interesting now being outside of the agency, we’re all seeing agency sign a player for college, and then he chooses another agency for his NFL representation, which I would think…
Brad Johnson: Does that happen a lot?
Andrew Woodward: It just changes. And so, I still have friends that work in the industry, and it depends. And so, hey, maybe another agent comes into the picture that wasn’t there in college, that as a recruiter, they want to choose them, and they’re not happy with their service. And so, that’s kind of some of the downsides of working for an agency is that these clients can hire and fire you at any point.
Brad Johnson: So, from an agent perspective, there’s no sort of contract where they’re like agreeing, “Hey, I’ll work with Andrew for a year or sign through college.” It’s literally like they can let you go at any time.
Andrew Woodward: For the college contracts, I can’t really speak to that. That’s what the sense that I get. I’ve never seen an NIL-specific college contract, but within the NFL contract, once you’re signed a deal, you have an SRA, standard representation agent on those deals. And so, they give a commission that you agree with the client and that agency for that. But before that, you can hire and fire at any point. And it’s an interesting business from when I was working after these players were eligible to sign, you’re paying for their training for these athletes, getting them in the best shape so that they can perform to their highest levels at the Combine and then at the Pro Day.
So, that is an expensive cost. And when you were doing the economics, when I was working for Leigh from 2016 all the way to 2018, if you were getting drafted the first three rounds, probably losing money on that signing. And so, it’s an interesting balance there. And obviously, you wanna pay for the best coaching, the best facilities for that player position coach, but also to the Combine training and to run the best 40, have the best verts, best bench press, and there’s amazing facilities throughout the country, but it is a cutthroat competition in order to get your player drafted as high as possible.
Brad Johnson: If only I would have known you guys in college, I could have made it to the league, man. You would have put me on that program.
Andrew Woodward: You could have been in it.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, that’s interesting. So, if you said, “Hey, here’s the competition in the sports agents world,” like obviously Leigh was one of the big players. We met at Athletes First, which is a big player right now. How many, like, is it five big players that are kind of most of market share? How big is the competition or how many different players?
Andrew Woodward: To put it in perspective, there’s actually more agents that are certified by the NFLPA than there are draftable players. And so, there’s a significant amount of competition. Obviously, you have your major agencies. There’s about seven or eight major of the big players. When I was working with Leigh, we were a smaller shop. We had two certified agents, which is considered significantly smaller than the CAAs of the world, the Athletics Firsts of world, the Roc Nations of the world.
So, when you’re in the competition with these bigger agencies, your pitch to these players is more of a hands-on service, “I can provide you more attention than maybe some of these bigger agencies,” or some of the agencies can offer other services that we could have probably provided at the time. “Hey, do you want to be in a movie deal? We have an entire film division,” or, “Are you interested in a broadcasting career? We have an entire broadcasting division.” And so, there’s a lot of different intricacies that are involved in the pitch to these players in what they are wanting from a player representation. What do they want from an agency perspective?
And so, it varies by client, and these conversations and these pitches are different. And that’s really where Leigh was so good, and he taught me. We really wanna get into the heart and the mind of the individual. What are those core values that are important for that individual? Would this be a good client for us to sign? Would he align with the values of the agency? And what’s important to that individual, but also too, what’s important to that family?
Brad Johnson: Well, I’ll tell you, there’s a parallel here with some of the Triad members, the advisors we work with, because it’s just the fact you said there’s more agents than draftable players. Well, guess what? There’s a lot of financial advisors out there too. And if you don’t differentiate, you’re essentially a commodity. And so, what I’m hearing you say is you guys had some incredible ancillary benefits, a value prop that was even outside of, “Hey, I’ll negotiate your contract.” You’re paying and helping them prep for the Combine, of course, which is gonna increase their contract value and your cut of their contract. So, that makes sense. Now, you’ve got, “Hey, do you want a movie deal?”
So, basically, the on-field, you’re also bringing a lot of off-field benefits there, too, as they kind of diversify their income because we all know most NFL careers are very short. What’s the average NFL career? Like three years for an NFL player?
Andrew Woodward: It’s three and a half years.
Brad Johnson: Three and a half? Yeah. So, okay, well, we have to get to the sports brokering side. But before we do, rumor has it, you might have been partially responsible for why we see Patrick Mahomes on about every other commercial these days because you were helping with the marketing plan. And I know this was before the last couple of years where he’s literally on every other commercial, but you have any fun stories you can tell publicly about kind of how you pitched Patrick Mahomes or any fun stories that came out of that?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. With Patrick, Patrick came to the table through a relationship. His godfather is LaTroy Hawkins. He was a major league pitcher that played with Patrick’s father, Patrick Mahomes Sr. And when Patrick was going through the agency process, LaTroy recommended Leigh. and we built that relationship. Leigh and the other agent and Leigh’s partner at the time, Chris Cabott, really built a relationship, not only with LaTroy, with the family, but with Patrick at the time. And when it came down to signing, Leigh and Chris and that relationship with LaTroy and the time spent with that family, really won the day there.
And so, with Patrick, he was at Texas Tech, the gunslinger mentality, and didn’t have much of a defense at Texas Tech and would just be lightening up the numbers. And I think that when Patrick was coming out, the draft grade was around a second ground pick. But I think that a lot of the misconceptions is that he was a system-type quarterback. He played in the Big 12, air raid offense, throwing for 500 yards, five touchdowns, and throwing the ball 50 times. But through the draft process, through his Pro Day and individual meetings, his ability to comprehend a very complex playbook and his one-on-one meetings with the NFL coaches, the offense coordinators, quarterbacks coaches really won the day.
And his intelligence of understanding an offense and also to his mechanics is so impressive. And one of the amazing things about Patrick is football came late to his career. He was a baseball player first, also played basketball. And in an age of sports specialization, Patrick really forged that, that I think it’s really beneficial for him as a quarterback that he played baseball, that he played basketball as well, and really encouraged kids to play multiple different sports because there are so many translative properties to be a successful NFL quarterback. And I think that his background really leads to that.
Brad Johnson: So, you would have been out of college at that point because he got drafted in 2017, right? You started in 2016.
Andrew Woodward: I started in 2015.
Brad Johnson: 2015. So, were you the Baylor grad that had to go cheer for Texas Tech? Did the recruiting process start in college or how did that play out?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah, working for an agency, your fan affiliations you’ve got to put to the side. Never really liked playing against Texas Tech from Baylor, especially going against Patrick Mahomes. I think he always had his best games against us. But working in the industry, you’ve got to really put those allegiances aside. Business comes first there. And so, always was rooting for success when we were recruiting him. It was very tough to see him. I think he had like five touchdown passes his last year against Baylor.
Brad Johnson: But you were probably wearing a Texas Tech shirt at that game, weren’t you?
Andrew Woodward: Going neutral, going neutral. Still have my allegiances to Baylor, so.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, you guys recruit him out of college. Was that mainly his senior year or did it start even before that? Just to kind of get the process, if I was an advisor out there trying to figure out, “Hey, where does this process begin?”
Andrew Woodward: For Patrick, it was a little bit later on. I think that it was, we recruited him. Leigh’s background specializes in quarterbacks. He’s represented the who’s who of quarterbacks from Steve Young, Warren Moon, Troy Aikman and so has a great legency of representing great quarterbacks. And so, he was definitely on our radar, but like I mentioned, he wasn’t the top guys that was coming out that year. He really elevated himself after playing in Tech and moving up the draft board from an incredible workout, those personal invites and throwing sessions. And so, it’s always interesting to hear those backstories of, hey, I know the Saints really wanted him and was trying to move up to take him, but the Chiefs ended up moving up to number 10 and taking him. And obviously, one of the best NFL picks in NFL history.
Brad Johnson: And also, fun fact, because I have a good college buddy I played football with named Josh from Chicago. So, Josh, if you’re listening, this one’s for you. The Bears had a chance to pick him, and they went with a guy named Mitch for some reason. But, hey, I do remind him of that quite often, and he really enjoys it, so.
Andrew Woodward: Could you imagine Patrick on the Bears?
Brad Johnson: Okay. Well, any parting thoughts on just you obviously did help work on some marketing plans and kind of getting into the finance side of it. There’s a huge opportunity there from a monetary standpoint for a lot of pro athletes. So, how did you think about that side of the business besides the on-field performance? But how did you pitch guys off the field?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. Off the field, it’s really understanding what’s important to that individual, what types of brands that they want to partner with, and working on a specific plan for those individuals. And that’s part of the recruiting process. We would put together the decks and understand, “Okay. Who’s this individual? What are the opportunities?” And that, I guess, we would say vertical has changed over years where during my time it was kind of pre the athlete equity movement where it’s more commonplace now for an athlete to negotiate a deal and have ownership and part of that endorsement. That was kind pre our days and so it was really understanding what was important to that individual. When it comes down to Nike, Adidas, and Under Armour, what kind of brands do they want to work with? And also, to be able to negotiate the best deals for our clients there.
Brad Johnson: Were you part of the Adidas deal with Mahomes?
Andrew Woodward: I had just left Steinberg Sports when they were a part of that. And so, I left a couple of weeks before the draft. And so, left and moved to Dallas and ventured over into the sports tech world.
Brad Johnson: So, basically, when you’re recruiting these agents, you are putting together pitch decks of like, “Hey, you sign with us, we’re going to go pitch you to this company, this company, this company. Here’s the approach we would take.” And sounds like what you said there is now a lot of athletes, if they’re going to sign an endorsement deal, they’re like, “Hey, I’ll take either a piece of equity to do that.” Or like the Jordan move with Nike where he actually generated revenue off of every shoe sold, which was a pretty good deal looking back. But that’s kind of commonplace these days is what you’re saying.
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. I think, obviously, working with these smaller brands and why they would want to work with these athletes and the clout that working with these athletes brings to the table and how that can impact purchasing power and being associated with these individuals based on their following that can really move the needle for these brands. And so, it’s worth them having ownership and want to incentivize these individuals to promote that product or promote that brand to really elevate that status for them.
Brad Johnson: Cool. All right. We’ve got to save some time to get in the whole other side of this deal. So, you go from Steinberg’s agency and then now you’re at Game Plan, your current company. Did you go straight from Steinberg to Game Plan or were there any stops between there?
Andrew Woodward: No. There were a couple of stops in between. I took a very unconventional path to getting where I am now. And so, one of the things and initiatives that Leigh wanted to work on while I was at Steinberg Sports was to create an opportunity to invest in early-stage companies that are involved in sports and wanted to start a fund where him and the athletes can contribute, and was a part of putting that together. That was Steinberg Ventures. Unfortunately, it didn’t come off the ground for them, but when I was a part of that, I was intrigued and fascinated by that and found myself more interested in those types of opportunities than the on-field representation. and how these different athletes could add value for these companies. And so, that really always stuck with me.
But even rewind the clock even more when I started at Steinberg Sports, Leigh had a speaking event in Costa Mesa and I sat next to this individual named Collin Vataha, and we connected his father, Randy, the founder of Game Plan, used to be an agent. He worked for a group called Bob Woolf Associates based in Boston. And they represented the likes of Tom Glavine, Larry Bird, Joe Montana. And so, we connected on that based on my experience working with Leigh. I asked him, “Hey, what do you do?” And Collin, now the President of Game Plan, told me what they do. Well, they represent buyers and sellers of professional sports teams, that they’re involved with some of the biggest transactions in professional sports.
And I didn’t even know that industry existed at the time. I was thinking to myself, “Wow, that is fascinating. I would love to work in that field one day.” And me and Collin have stayed in touch for the past 10 years from that meeting, and that really was the Genesis moment for me working with Game Plan. After leaving Steinberg, I moved to Dallas, coming back to the roots of where I went to school in Waco, which is an hour and a half south of Dallas. And started in tech, worked for a CDP, which is a customer data platform for sports entertainment rights holders. And so, really learn from more of the business side of how these professional sports teams, these brands, these leagues really interact with their most valuable asset, which is their customer.
And a problem that we’re resolving is that these fans interact with these teams, and all this data is siloed in different departments, and our software was able to connect all that data in one house. And so, that these teams, leagues, other rights holders could make better business decisions. So, I did that for about five years, but I’m always at the edge to get on the investment side of things. And so, I launched my own investment platform called Inter Venture Sports and led a minority state and EFL championship club called Leagues United. I did that for about a year and a half and still stayed in touch with Collin, and the opportunity came on board to work with Game Plan. And it’s something that I’ve always wanted to do and that door opened, and so I was excited about that.
And to be really the first hire outside of Collin, Randy’s son, to the firm is something that I cherish. And it’s a legacy that carries significant weight and working for the first boutique sports investment bank and working with a group that helped create this industry that’s been around since 1994 is something that I’m humbled and honored to be a part of.
Brad Johnson: Cool. Well, we got to dive into this because there’s a lot of advisors out there going like, “How does this work?” Because I feel better now because you’re like, hey, you were in the sports industry, and you didn’t know this industry existed. I’ve been in finance for the last almost 20 years, and I didn’t know it existed. So, I kind of think of it as like an alt investment. Obviously, it’s a private investment. Yeah, there aren’t any publicly traded.
Andrew Woodward: There’s a couple.
Brad Johnson: Are there? Are there actually publicly traded?
Andrew Woodward: The Green Bay Packers and the Atlanta Braves in the US, obviously. There’s Manchester United in the UK, probably one of the most famous soccer clubs globally.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, to kind of kick this off, you guys work NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball, NHL, kind of the big four, and obviously, you just mentioned some soccer there as well. But what are some famous transactions people might be familiar with that your firm has helped facilitate?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah, they’ve been part of some of the bigger transactions in professional sports history from the Sacramento Kings, the Los Angeles Dodgers, Boston Celtics, the Golden State Warriors. For example, Game Plan represented Joe Wieskamp and Peter Guber in November 2010, where they closed on the Golden State Warriors. And that value of that franchise was at $450 million. Right now, on paper, that franchise between a couple of the bigger publications, Forbes and Sportico, has that franchise valued as the number one NBA franchise and anywhere in the high $8 billion to $9 billion.
Brad Johnson: It was a decent investment.
Andrew Woodward: Pretty good investment.
Brad Johnson: Not bad for a 15-year return.
Andrew Woodward: The best time to invest in a professional sports team was yesterday. These valuations continue to go up and produce significant value. And there’s a lot of variety of different reasons there, but number one of it is the scarcity, right? I was at a conference this past weekend, and one of the panelists that was speaking at this conference was talking about professional sports team ownership and investment and you’re investing in one of 30 or one of 32 Picassos. They’re very rare, and there’s only a fixed supply of these franchises and significant demand.
Brad Johnson: Is it fair to say, I’m just looking, I was a kid of the 80s, grew up going to sports card shows, all of that, and I feel like the rising tide of just professional sports across all major leagues, I know NBA viewership’s a little down here recently, but I feel you could have just thrown a dart and if you had a chance to even get a small piece of any professional team 10, 20 years ago, they all went up in value. Are there exceptions to that rule out there?
Andrew Woodward: I think there’s exceptions, probably more on the international side of things. When you think about, you talked about the big four or even two, including Major League Soccer in that conversation, a lot of the structure of these professional sports teams are more socialistic in nature versus across the pond or in international soccer, it’s more capitalist in nature because they have promotion and relegation. In the US, if you’re the last-place team in the league, you’re not really being punished. You’re almost rewarded with a first-round of pick or the top draft pick depending on the league of the number one overall pick in the NFL draft or a lottery pick in NBA.
First, internationally, specifically for soccer, for example, depending on where you finished on the table or in the standings, you might go down to a lower lead. And so, you’re losing out on that realized revenue generated from that lead. And so, that can have significant impact versus what we are commonplace today in the United States.
Brad Johnson: It would be like if you were the Cleveland Browns, you get kicked to a lower league, which means you’re costing yourself money, right?
Andrew Woodward: Yes. And so, it’s interesting within the top league in the UK, the English Premier League, the vision below that, which is the EFL Championship. The club that in my previous firm we led a small round in, we took a lot of syndicate and Leagues United, they played in what they call the richest game in football. And so, they were in the Championship, which is the league below the premier league. They finished third in the league. And so, the top two teams go up to the Premier League. The bottom three teams in the Premier League goes down to the championship. And we finished third, so we were in a playoff. And so, we played the 16. And then we played in this one game, winner take all, and lost to Southampton. And anywhere from about $180 million to about $200 million in potential revenue was on the line for that game because of that promotion.
Brad Johnson: Wow.
Andrew Woodward: And so, it’s a totally different structure.
Brad Johnson: No wonder those fans are so crazy over there.
Andrew Woodward: Oh, yeah.
Brad Johnson: Geez. That’s wild, especially when you look at it from a straight business economic standpoint and how it plays out. So, it sounds like the volatility from the buy-sell side in soccer is probably much different than American. Because I think you told me NFL teams, they just split the TV rights equally, right? Divided by 32? The bigger markets don’t get a bigger cut than the smaller markets. Anything like that?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. When you’re investing in a professional sports team, think about it as you’re investing in legalized monopolies. You have a monopoly on that specific region. Because in the league side, either you’re splitting 1/30th or 1/32nd of that entire league business, all of the assets that the leagues build. and you’re really protected from this geographic monopoly in the US with our major professional sports leagues in one of top 30 or top 32 markets in the United States and Canada. As a Kansas City Chiefs fan, you don’t have to worry about a competing Kansas City NFL team coming to the table, which is so unlike other businesses and industries.
If there wanted to be another franchise in Kansas City, that would have to have an entire league approval, have an expansion fee, and that would be voted on. Versus other industries, competition is widely rampant. And so, you really have a specific monopoly within that region, which helps contribute to why these values keep increasing in value year-over-year.
Brad Johnson: And you were educating me as we kind of prepped for this. A lot of people just think about the games, but that’s just one of the revenue streams. So, can you break out the multiple revenue streams as you’re looking at this through the investment lens and how you kind of analyze that?
Andrew Woodward: Yes, definitely. And so, when you’re investing in a professional sports team, you’re investing in a platform that has a conglomerate of different assets, of different ancillary businesses. Obviously, you have the live event business, which has been around since the existence of these teams, which includes ticketing and hospitality. Obviously, this has evolved and grown over time. Like how we met at a Super Bowl event, there’s other events that are associated with that live event. And as the infrastructure and the complexity of these stadiums and arenas grow, the level of different hospitality and VIP changes. Additionally, sports is in the media business.
Obviously, you have the top-line item for these leagues and, subsequently, these teams is their media rights deals. And they have national media rights deals and given the team and league, there’s also local media rights deals. Additionally, they’re in the advertising business. You have sponsors all the way from the naming rights of stadiums and arenas to patches on jerseys or on the front of kids in soccer all the way down to signage in and around their stadium arena, and a conglomerate of different assets that have the ability to add advertising and sponsorship. Additionally, they’re in the real estate business. You have your arena or stadium, as well as a real estate around that stadium or arena and parking and hotels, and different apartments that can increase the bottom line of that specific team depending on the ownership structure there.
Additionally, these teams have evolved and grown and having investment arms that either invest in other professional sports teams, potentially other different businesses, different technologies. And so, that’s a newer evolution that keeps on growing. Obviously, you have merchandise and food and beverage. And so, it’s such a unique asset. Sport has really evolved as its own asset class. And there’s very few, if not any, that really play in multiple different verticals that support that underlying asset.
Brad Johnson: I think I was sharing this with you, but this was probably… When did the Dodgers deal go down? Was that 10 years ago?
Andrew Woodward: The Dodgers deal, that would have been 2012, I believe.
Brad Johnson: 2012, yeah.
Andrew Woodward: I got to check that.
Brad Johnson: So, over a decade ago. So, I had the chance. So, Todd Boehly was one of the investors in that deal, ran Guggenheim money, and we had a connection through an insurance relationship. And one of things, I mean, any time you get a chance to have a private dinner with a billionaire, you should probably take it, probably learn a thing or two. And one of the things that was fascinating to me, back to you just running through those different revenue streams of pro sports teams, I think the deal was around $2 billion when they did it, when they bought the Dodgers, which was crazy money back then. And everybody was kind of saying, “Wow, they way overpaid for them.” And then I think he went and flipped and sold their TV rights for $10 billion. Those stats could be off, so we can fact-check that in the show notes. But basically, flipped just the media rights for about 5X what he bought the whole team for.
Now, granted, it was a multi-year deal, but that’s where I remember thinking, “Wow, okay, there’s different angles you have to look through in these pro sports teams.” But one of his theses, which I think has come to be very true, they also had a piece of the Billboard Music Awards, but basically live events. And with the invention of DVR and YouTube TV and being able to just record everything, he said, “Commercial spend, ad spend is going to gravitate towards things that people have to see live,” which is pro sports and the Academy Awards and things like that that you don’t want to delay it because your buddy’s going to ruin who won the game or whatever if you’re not watching it live. Have you seen that play out in valuations for pro sports teams where more ad dollars are siphoning more in that direction versus the TV shows people can just DVR and they’re just going to skip the commercials?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah, most definitely. And to your point, professional sports, or just sports in general, is the last frontier of appointment television. Just to put it in perspective, this past year, 80 of the top 100 US broadcasts were sports events. And that number would be higher, but we were in an election year. And so, actually, in 2023, 96 out of the 100 top U.S. broadcasts were sports events.
Brad Johnson: How many?
Andrew Woodward: That is dominated by the NFL.
Brad Johnson: How is that broken out? Like, by leagues? I would assume a lot were NFL.
Andrew Woodward: NFL and college football dominate, obviously. NBA finals games are sprinkled in between, but other than the Academy Awards or a Thanksgiving Day Parade, it’s US professional sports.
Brad Johnson: Wow. That’s wild. Okay. Time’s going too fast here, buddy. We’d probably have to do part two someday. All right. So, let’s break it down, and let’s just look more through the investment lens as an alt investment. And when you’re talking multi-billion dollar valuations on sports teams, I almost feel like any more there’s like 10 people on the planet that can afford these high-end sports teams. So, have you seen a trend in fractionalizing these deals, syndicating these deals? Mahomes bought a piece of the Royals. I’m sure that was to help keep him in Kansas City. Because it used to be just family-owned teams and now they’re getting so valuable, it’s like it’s going to take more than one individual or family to be able to afford them, so how has that shifted the investment side?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah, it’s changed the ecosystem to your point and that these ownership groups have evolved and changed over time. Like, to your point, it used to be just families owning these businesses more as a hobby or a side business, but ownership has changed in sophistication where individuals and groups are coming from private equity, tech, finance. media and telecom and so that’s really shifted the industry. And to your point as about these valuations continually to grow and rise in value was the need for private equity. And so, in 2021, private equity really entered the steam within the big five professional sports franchises, and the NFL just adapted private equity in 2024. And so, there’s a need for liquidity so you’re having either some of these majority professional owners sell their stakes or even to some of these limited partners.
And so, as these valuations continue to rise, there’s a need for additional capital, but also too, it presents some of the challenges as these leagues have very stringent and strict rules on who can be professional sports teams owners. And given a certain league and team, there’s LP restrictions. And so, these leagues really want to be very diligent in who they can bring on board and don’t wanna have cap tables with hundreds or thousands of people having all fractional ownership in a professional sports team. And so, the bar keeps raising as far as the amount needed to be able to become a professional owner, I should say. And so, those bars continue to rise as these valuations continue to go up.
Brad Johnson: Well, that makes sense because you don’t want some idiot on social that’s part owner of a pro sports team just tweeting there whatever their random thought of the day is. So, when you look at the cap tables and maybe you look at some of the recent transactions, whatever you can share publicly, is there a limit? Sounds like the NFL just opened up to private equity here recently. Is it like, “Hey, we want no more than 10 different people on the cap table with this deal,” or how does that play out? Is it different on every deal?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. With the NFL, they have strict rules as far as how much equity you can have in a specific team. That’s right around 10% right now, and that private equity firms cannot have ownership in more than three teams. But given the specific league, there’s different rules and restrictions on private equity versus other leagues or emerging leagues or international leagues. It’s much more conservative in nature as far as allowing private equity. And so, just depending on a specific league, there are specific restrictions in place for different private equity firms, but also too for how many limited partners that you can have as far as an ownership group.
Brad Johnson: So, to make sure I caught that, NFL currently up to 10% can come from private equity of the deal?
Andrew Woodward: Yes, max.
Brad Johnson: And then as you look at across leagues, which ones are the most private equity friendly where that percentage is higher? Are there some that still don’t allow private equity? How do ownership groups work? So, if me and a buddy form an LLC, does that…? Obviously, I’m not planning on investing anytime soon, so don’t get your hopes up.
Andrew Woodward: You never know.
Brad Johnson: But how does that work based on private equity versus, hey, here’s a couple of guys that formed an LLC and threw some money in it sort of deal?
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. As far as private equity, all of the leagues, major professional sports leagues allow for private equity now. NFL was the last domino to fall to approve private equity. And I think for them, they didn’t really need it at the time, but also too, we’re always kind of waiting to see how private equity operated in those other leagues. And so, from that structure, I think that private equity is healthy for these professional sports teams and these ownership groups and provides quick liquidity for either these limited partners or majority owners. And you’re seeing that really play out. Private equity has already entered the Buffalo Bills recently with the transaction there. And there are some other opportunities.
Brad Johnson: That explains Josh Allen’s contract.
Andrew Woodward: Really helped support that. And so, yeah, it just really, really varies between the leagues and as far as the individuals, yeah, there’s cap on how many limited partners that you can have. And so, putting together a specific syndicate of 10 or 15 individuals is not going to fly within these major professional sports teams versus maybe a lower league or more in the minor league type ranks or potential investment across the seats. And so, it just really depends on that opportunity. And then also to the, like I mentioned, the diligence as significantly stringent as you are representing the brand of some of the most prestigious intellectual property in all of the world.
Brad Johnson: So, what is the highest percentage of any pro sports leagues for private equity? Are there any that allow 100% private equity, or is there always a cap on it?
Andrew Woodward: As far as the big five, there’s always a cap. There’s no… Specifically, within the Big 5, that can be 100% private equity. There are groups. Sixth Street Partners has invested in Bay FC. That’s in the NWSL, the top women’s professional soccer league. And so, there are different structures within that league that allowed them to come on board. But specifically outright 100% private equity ownership, there’s nothing specifically in place right now.
Brad Johnson: I know we’re getting close to the end here, buddy, so I’m gonna rapid-fire a few of these. If you were to, and I won’t hold you to this, so disclaimer, Andrew’s not predicting the future of sports markets here for those of you that have the money to invest in them. But if you are saying just looking worldwide and here’s a pro sport that I am bullish on, like if you had the opportunity and you had enough money to go invest right now, high growth, whether it’s market share from a media standpoint or whatever, what are the top two or three pro sports leagues that you would be looking at?
Andrew Woodward: I think you would not look any farther than the National Football League.
Brad Johnson: Really?
Andrew Woodward: It is the most valuable league and one of very few leagues where every team is profitable and these media rights continue to rise and I think that one of the things that the NFL has done a tremendous job is continually to grow and evolve and globalize the brand of the NFL. You have games that are played, obviously, consistently in London. Now, they’re expanding to other countries. They’re playing in Spain. They announced a game that’s playing in Australia and really growing that footprint, and they continue to grow. The NFL, it’s maxed out all the fans in the US and also in North America but, obviously, you continually see that brand evolve and grow. And they’re getting very heavily involved in flag football, which actually will be export, and for the L.A. Olympics in 2028.
And so, how that can help grow and evolve brands and having other countries playing American football, it continues to grow and evolve and rise. And so, I would not look any farther than the NFL but there’s a lot of great other opportunities out there.
Brad Johnson: It makes a lot of sense. And I think a lot of, you know, you’re just watching the NFL game like, “Oh, this one’s,” I had to wake up at 9 a.m. because it’s in London or whatever. You don’t realize the business side where they’re expanding the footprint. I was in Disney a few years back, and I sat next to one guy from Sweden, another guy from Germany, and they were telling me they were Chiefs fans, and I was like, “This is wild,” but there’s a huge fan base overseas. And it makes sense because you’re dropping your sport right in their backyard so they can go watch it. So, I thought you might go F1. I feel like F1, a massively growing sport in the US. I thought maybe eSports, but I love that answer. It makes a lot of sense to me.
Andrew Woodward: Those are also very attractive. F1 is a very exciting space. I just saw the trailer for the new Brad Pitt F1 film dropped the other day. Looks very exciting. Obviously, the growth of Formula One is unprecedented. It’s a very exciting sport. And so, still on the bucket list to go to an F1 race. Still haven’t done that, but we need to go one time.
Brad Johnson: Well, let’s go. Let’s go.
Andrew Woodward: There we go. We’ll have to plan that.
Brad Johnson: I’ve been to one. I went to the one in Miami. It was great. It’s loud but it was entertaining. And if you’ve watched Drive to Survive on Netflix, then there’s a lot of politics and a lot of action. It’s not just the boring NASCAR just doing laps.
Andrew Woodward: Yeah, I think that’s one of the most incredible things about sports is sports is all about storytelling and the way that through Drive to Survive and Formula One that they’re able to tell incredible stories through the different races, the different drivers, the different locations, and really get the behind the scenes experience of those drivers and really show incredible captivating narratives that you don’t really see from just watching a race on TV. And really has captivated an audience and converted so many net new fans and done an incredible job. And when you think about it, it’s all about the storytelling, right? There are these characters, incredible brands that are associated with these teams and races, but they have also these superstars and they’ve done an incredible job of storytelling. And so, I think, obviously, that’s a high bar in a lot of case studies associated with Drive to Survive.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, I think a lot of people are just like, “I’m watching this show.” They don’t realize that’s marketing for F1. They just converted you to a fan. Now, you’re paying for their stuff or going to a race. Same with NFL games. That’s marketing and a brilliant business model. Well, my man, I know you’ve got a call coming right up. I don’t want to run you into that. We’ve talked a lot about kind of the business side, but the whole story behind the vision of this podcast is helping financial advisors build a business that blesses their life that doesn’t become their life. And being a guy that grew up in sports agent, I’m sure you can relate to that because I’m sure your life was business for a few years. And so, I would love to hear Andrew’s definition of what does do business do life mean to you.
Andrew Woodward: Yeah. I think, for me, the way I think about it, a lot of times we think about business as separated from life. Those are exclusive, but I don’t think that those things are mutually exclusive. I think of two things when we think of do business, do life. I think of identity. Who you are as an individual, what are your core values are going to obviously impact your life but also be a direct reflection on how you conduct business, the way you conduct business, and additionally, thinking about relationships. I believe in the adage that friends are like mirrors, they reflect who you are. And based on the relationships that you have in your life will guide and direct obviously your life but also impact the way that you do business and who you choose to conduct business with or who you chose not to conduct business with.
Brad Johnson: Love that. That’s a lot of why Triad exists today is that exact reasoning. Do business with people you want to do life with, right? Well, Andrew, it’s been awesome, my man. I actually might be down in Dallas in July for the Dallas Card Show with my son. So, I will definitely hit you up with a text, go out to a dinner, do something fun if you happen to be in town. So, look forward to the next time we get to hang in person.
Andrew Woodward: Enjoyed it, Brad. Thanks for having me on.
Brad Johnson: All right, bud. Till next time.
