Christa Hardin: Brad and Sarah, thank you so much for joining us for the Enneagram and Marriage Podcast. I am so delighted that we get to talk together today about couples working together, also working alongside each other in many other ways as a family, as a marriage. Thank you so much for joining us.
Sarah Johnson: Happy to be here.
Brad Johnson: Excited to be here.
Sarah Johnson: Thanks.
Christa Hardin: Guys, absolutely. I love your vision. I love your business as we shared before we got on. And you’re going to tell everyone more about it. But first, let’s have you guys just introduce yourselves and your Enneagram types. Everyone here loves to hear about your personalities. So, tell us about you and even a bit about how you met.
Sarah Johnson: You want me?
Brad Johnson: Well, yeah. You go.
Sarah Johnson: Okay. Well, I’m Sarah Johnson. I am a 6 and I’m a proud 6. Brad and I met way back in high school. I was a freshman in high school. He was a junior in high school, and we met at Pizza Hut. My sister was dating his good friend and we met there after one of my basketball games. And then we started dating that year and, yeah. Oh, we’ll celebrate 20 years this July being married, so.
Brad Johnson: Sweethearts from the get-go.
Christa Hardin: That is amazing and so beautiful, and I absolutely love that it was like that long ago, and yet here you are today. And know your Enneagram types have done your work. There’s so much that our audience is going to glean from you about how you’ve done this work. So, thank you for being vulnerable a little bit with us here, pulling the curtain back to show like how does this work for all these years, for those younger couples who are like maybe hitting some of those walls. So, so cute. I love it. How did you learn your types by the way?
Sarah Johnson: I’ll let you go there.
Brad Johnson: I’ll take that one?
Sarah Johnson: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, about I think it was 2015. I was in a private mastermind with Michael Hyatt and the last session of that year, so we met once a quarter, we did monthly zooms. It was about 15 entrepreneurs from all over the country. And the last session, maybe it was 2016, now that I think about it.
Sarah Johnson: I think it was.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, it was 2016. So, it was the second year of this program. And the last experience we did together was at Blackberry Farm out in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains. If you haven’t been there for anybody listening in, highly, highly suggest it. It’s beautiful. And so, Michael invited our spouses out with us, and he brought in Ian Cron, who I know you’re familiar with, Christa, and he had just written The Road Back to You, maybe not too far before that. And so, our homework was take this test, figure out your number, and then if nothing else, read the chapter on you. And so, I’m a 7 and I just remember diving into that book and it was like reading my diary. It was like, “Oh my gosh.”
So, that was kind of the first experience and we spent a couple of days. Ian workshopped a full day on each of the numbers, how they interact. And it was cool because it was all couples there. We’re seeing how the couples interacted. And I feel like, well, I guess we’d been married about ten years at that time. And I learned more about Sarah in two days than I think I had in ten years of marriage. It was wild. And so, that was where we were first introduced to the Enneagram and kind of fell in love with it and became a part of how we really helped us understand how we communicate in sometimes very different ways.
Christa Hardin: Oh, my goodness. I didn’t get the fullness of that story before. And what a message for people looking just, I noticed there’s a lot of newer listeners on Spotify this year, and as you probably know from your podcast, we get new people all the time. And just to hear you guys say to these people just finding the Enneagram, this is a tool after ten years of doing a lot of deep dive work, which I know a 7 and a 6 do, this tool helped you more than anything else in just two days. That’s amazing. And, Sarah, did you also feel that revelation or as a 6, which I know is harder to type sometimes, was it harder to find your type?
Sarah Johnson: I don’t think it was hard to find my type. I accepted it okay. I think some people weren’t very accepting of their Enneagram at first, you know? Sometimes look at the not-so-fabulous parts of that number, but like he said, it was opening up your diary. It was all about me on that number 6.
Christa Hardin: Yeah. And you knew it.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: I think looking at that whole group, we had every number represented 1 through 9. And almost the gut reaction from most people when they first got their number, because it talks about how you show up when you’re not healthy is like, “Ugh, that’s not me.” You almost resisted at first, but then once you settle in, it’s like, “Okay, yeah, maybe that is me.”
Sarah Johnson: I don’t know. I think sometimes the 7s only saw the good parts. They were like…
Brad Johnson: Well, that’s what we do. We’re a walking party looking for a location, you know?
Christa Hardin: Yes, this is true. I just had somebody say on my Instagram this week, like, “This feels like me at my best,” and like, “I’m not sure I connect with this best part of me.” And I was like, “Well, we follow the Gottman 5:1 positive to negative, so we know that we will throw you that little punch every now and again, but you’re going to get a lot of fun here.” So, I love that you brought that, but I also love that, Sarah, you went into your virtue of courage for the 6. That is the virtue. And you said, “I know I have amazing gifts, but I’m looking at the hard parts. It is me,” and you faced it, whereas a lot of us don’t have that courage. And so, I love that you came right in and now you’re a proud 6. So, you’ve obviously transitioned to find like there is a joy in finding the positive parts of our types too, right?
Sarah Johnson: Absolutely. And you need courage every day to continue to face those and to be self-aware about how you might be coming across or the impact of your message.
Christa Hardin: Yes, so true. And that just really helps everybody to know who is facing that right now as they discover their types, that it’s alright to dig into both sides, not just one or the other. And we do that as a pendulum sometimes. But I also love that you guys came here today to talk about business. This is a blind spot for this podcast because Wes and I don’t work together in the same business. We occasionally do talks together. We’re doing a study at our church coming up of my book, and it’s so exciting, but we don’t work together. And I love how you two don’t always work together either, but there are places that intersect with work because I think that’s the ideal for most of us couples where we’re like, “I want to have pieces of my day job to influence my spouse, and I want to also be able to be influenced and part of their day.”
And your motto and everything you’ve done at Triad is so beautiful, and I’ve seen you grow and learn this. I don’t know if it had a failing forward aspect to it, but I’d love for you to tell us a little bit about how you’ve grown your business, what it’s about, and even how you’ve learned to work together in it.
Brad Johnson: Want me to go?
Sarah Johnson: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, I think what you’re referencing is Do Business Do Life, which is kind of our mantra and our true north. And so, I grew up in finance, started at the age of 26, and basically, that business model where we were working with independent financial advisors all over the country. So, basically, I was building a business within a business, a book of advisors that I consulted and worked with across the country. And as I grew up, and at the time we were married, but no kids, now we have three. So, obviously, you go through these different seasons of life. And finances, I mean, you work with money every single day. And sometimes money can consume you, the pursuit of it.
And I think in my early days, it was very much go get the things I never had. I grew up on a farm, middle of nowhere Kansas throwing hay bales in the summer, and it was like, “Oh, I’m going to go get that car I could never afford, those shoes, those clothes, that watch.” And you see this kind of consume people in finance. And, honestly, it probably consumed me a bit looking back. And as we grew up as a couple, had kids, what I started to see was there was this pursuit of more and more and more, business, business, business oftentimes at the detriment and the sacrifice of family and relationship. And oftentimes Sarah was excluded from those. So, we had a lot of different conferences, meetings, trainings.
And so, I would fly out for two or three days and it’s weird. It was almost like there could be this form of resentment that would start to come between us because she’s at home. She’s got the kids, the little ones. I come home and it’s like, “Hey, missed you, babe.” And it’s like, “Here’s the kid that’s been crying for three days.” And I think COVID for us, you know, it was kind of an evolution but COVID for us, obviously, it was not great for a lot of people. It was in a weird way kind of a blessing because all of that travel. I had 80 some nights that year I was supposed to be on the road and it just stopped. And it kind of gave me the space to reevaluate and, is this my version of success? Is this what I want in life?
And Do Business Do Life came from just the idea of, “Wait, does it have to be this way? Do you have to sacrifice the life side for the business side, or could you actually integrate the two?” And so, my co-founder, Shawn Sparks and I, we both grew up in that business together. He’s married. He has four kids. So, a lot of the do business, do life was what if we built a business in a way that we didn’t sacrifice the life side, but it actually could bless the life side? And so, Christa, where you met us, that was all Sarah. I’ll give her credit, but one of Triad’s conferences we’re about four and a half years old as a company now. It’s our launch experience in January and testament to Sarah and Aubrey, Shawn’s wife, they’re like, “Hey, so we’re part of this.” Oftentimes the spouse, the better half, as Sarah refers to.
Sarah Johnson: That was a joke at first, then they just ran with it.
Christa Hardin: I love it.
Brad Johnson: So, what would happen at a lot of conferences, it was all about the business side. And then it’d be like, “Hey,” and in finance, it’s a very guy, I mean, it’s probably 90% men. I mean, it’s changing for the better. A lot more females are getting in, but still very male-dominated. And so, it would be, “Hey, wives, girlfriends, go hit the spa for a couple of days and the guys will be doing the business conference.” And there’s a lot of challenges that Sarah has faced as being the spouse of an entrepreneur, the stressors of that. And Sarah and Aubrey said, “Well, we’re going to do our own session. We’re going to call it the Better Half Session. And we’re going to talk about the challenges we face, and we’re going to bring in amazing speakers that can serve us.” And enter Christa.
Christa Hardin: Oh. So, sweet.
Brad Johnson: And so, that was really cool. And that was awesome to see her and Aubrey really embrace that side and go all in on the do business, do life side. I don’t know what I missed or what you want to add.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. We just knew that we could provide more value to this community than just a spa day.
Christa Hardin: Yeah. And I think that speaks to both sides, that we’re learning slowly but surely culturally, that we do need body work. And I know at the end of my sessions, I often, even yesterday there was a 6 and I just said, “Take a deep breath and do that body almost spa moment with me.” And it really brought out the emotion needed. What you’re saying is we also need the thinking work as partners of somebody who’s in a business situation. So, if there are people listening saying, “You know, I am the breadwinner of this family largely, and my partner needs that spa day,” yes, they absolutely do but they also need something besides bodywork. They needed heart work, mental health work, and I love that you’ve been doing that lately over the last few years to really incorporate that.
And, Sarah, that is such a beautiful way you added to the story because I saw a lot of smiles of feeling included from women, and I feel very strong about inclusivity. It’s one of my favorite things in the world that I’ve come to learn after being a gossipy high school girl who did both and learned the hard way, and then also excluded others. So, you guys really bringing everyone together is so cool. Tell us what made you say to yourselves, “We have to learn how to work together as a 6 and 7,” when we all know, I think most of our listeners are at least beginning to know those are very different types. So, once you discover your type, you’re running a business, you’re starting to find some leverage with the conferences that you put out and give supplies and support to both partners. What did you discover about your 7 and 6 that really helped you to start thriving together versus just surviving all the time with little kids?
Sarah Johnson: I think as a 6, I think in a 7’s perspective, I’m just like putting the brakes on. It’s kind of like the fun sucker, “Put the brakes on. Slow it down. Let’s think about this and I don’t think we need to do all that.” And so, there was a lot of realization of, “Okay. Yes. Sarah, you’re right in your thinking, and that could go wrong if we plan too much in this area or whatever.” But I think it’s also because he learned about the Enneagram, because he learned about what a 6, how they think, I think he is taking more of my feedback in and we’re putting some boundaries on certain things.
A little rambling here, but I think one thing that we’ve done really good as a 6 and a 7 and me being mainly in the home, obviously, again, when he’s at the office, having Brooke, our EA, a huge part of controlling his calendar and I’m with her on that. So, I think that has been huge, and the best thing I think Brad did and when we hired her, it was we were hiring her. She was also my EA. Obviously, 95% of this work that she does is Triad work base, 8 to 5 kind of stuff for Brad. But she was aware that our needs were family, life, and then business, and we want it all to integrate and we want it to support each other. And I think that’s been the best in his growth and our calmness in the home. It’s helped. So, we’re all on the same page. He doesn’t do any of his calendar. He goes to Brooke. And now and then Brooke and I communicate about family stuff.
So, I think that has been a huge thing as a 6 and a 7. I don’t have to just bombard him with, “Oh my gosh, we got too much on the calendar because Brooke and I can do that. And when we need to bring Brad in, we bring Brad in and he’s just working away. So, I think that’s been a godsend in having an EA for the both of us and not just him. And I feel included with that. Yeah.
Christa Hardin: Absolutely awesome.
Brad Johnson: Well, I mean all of that, yes. So, I think just understanding the 6-7 dynamic, I feel like it was a huge blessing because we did that before I was an entrepreneur. So, I was 13 years-ish as an entrepreneur, kind of building a business within a business. And, oh my gosh, I can’t even imagine where we would have been the last four and a half years with the additional stressors of entrepreneurship without that understanding. So, we were married for ten years before we were kind of introduced to the Enneagram, and a lot of the what I would call marriage conflict that every couple has, I don’t care how happily married you are…
Christa Hardin: Thank you. Yes.
Brad Johnson: Yes. It’s part of it. And when we would get into conflict, as a 7, almost optimistic to a fault sometimes, and 6, other side of that coin, sometimes pessimistic or realistic, yeah, realistic, in Sarah’s words, we would almost have this little tug of war going like, “Why can I not be excited and have fun about something without you just ripping it away from me?” And so, that was me not understanding how she processed information differently. And so, when we were introduced to the Enneagram, it was not like Sarah’s always trying to rain on my parade or slow this thing down. It was, “I’m looking for nothing can go wrong. It’ll all work out,” and she’s looking for, “Well, actually there’s three or four things that actually could if we don’t like kind of look at it through a different way.”
And I remember an early, and I will say two big jumps in my life. When I left corporate, I was in IT first to take that first job in finance. I went from a very comfortable salary in Kansas to nothing, work off nothing but commissions, which is scary service teaching at the time. But I will say the loyalist in her as we process that, talk through it. Once she was in, she had my back all the way.
Christa Hardin: Oh, my gosh. That’s amazing.
Brad Johnson: Without that confidence, I might have never done it, right? I might have never made that leap. And then once again, 13 years building a career in finance and then to leave all of that behind, 13 years of hard work to go venture out into the unknown of entrepreneurship. Once again, full support once we had talked through it. So, I do think as I look now, we’re close to 100 team members at Triad and the Enneagram is huge. Like, we have everybody on the team take it. All of the diversity of the numbers and the different viewpoints and perspectives is a superpower when you understand it because you’re not having like this lens where you’re only looking through your view. You’ve actually got this full perspective.
And I think that has been so, so helpful for both keeping the marriage right but also while the stressors of entrepreneurship are bombarding us some days, which is part of it, I think it’s been massive.
Sarah Johnson: I feel like Brad now has a great insight and perspective as an entrepreneur and really diving into the Enneagram because now he works with so many offices that are husband-wife. I think he’s a great coach in that aspect and can offer some great advice and lead in that way with his knowledge of all of it.
Brad Johnson: Coaching is therapy.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, it really is.
Brad Johnson: You would know better than anyone, right?
Christa Hardin: Yes, because I know Ian Cron and I are very similar in the way that we moved from therapy to coaching. We were talking about that the other day on the podcast here, and there are such similarities that it’s almost hard to separate coaching from therapy still. So, I love that you both get why the Enneagram is so powerful. I also want to make note that it was so interesting the other day I was working with a chiropractic center with the Enneagram and they had me in to train. And it was fascinating that when we went over the types they didn’t have there, so when we were going over their team, they had a few missing types but I was really working with them like on all of their strengths they had, as well as there was three shadows and I said, “We need to make account for these because these are hurting your business.”
So, I love that you just told everyone who’s working in their own business, like you have to account for them. If you’re blessed enough to have a team of almost a hundred like you guys, you can get all the numbers in. If you can’t, you’ve got to know what those shadows are. And so, what’s so interesting is I went through the three types. I won’t share the other two. But the type they said after I went through was they really need to hire a 6. So, it was fascinating. They were like, wow.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, we were deficient 6s. And what’s wild? It’s interesting how the different types gravitate towards different roles. So, in finance, we have a new business division, which is very much you have to do things in the right order and compliantly. 1s are like they’re gravitating towards that role, right?
Christa Hardin: Yes.
Brad Johnson: Our general counsel is a 6 and he is an absolute rock star. And we had a situation the last week and his superpower was he was looking at it from every single angle, but there’s not a number that could have done it to the level that he did because that’s just the way he’s wired. Oh, it’s really cool when you start to see the superpowers of each of the numbers and how it can play out in business.
Christa Hardin: Yes, I love that about you guys because I know you’ve made different commitments over the years, and I’ve heard on your podcast, which is amazing, and in the show notes too, but you really try to honor your partner even knowing their flaws. And that is very research-based, by the way. But I also love that we can have particulars as we’re growing our business, and 6 is one of those secret sauces, whereas there was a couple of other types. Like, I said, they were like, “Okay. We can try to make up for those. But they were like 6. We need 1.” You can’t fake that brilliance. So, we all have a different kind of brilliance.
Brad Johnson: It’s like where you need the constraints in your business oftentimes. Like finance, 6s are good like, “Oh, what about these three things that could go wrong?” That’s kind of important when you are running a business, you know?
Christa Hardin: Yeah, absolutely. And I also think that couples here will be so grateful because you’ve mentored and coached other couples in this space. What patterns have you particularly noticed? And this is for Brad, but also Sarah, sometimes you’re talking with the wives too, so you as well. What do you feel like couples struggle? Is it the main thing you said like just the time? Because I think the EA topic was fantastic and a lot of people can reach for that. It’s become more accessible, but I also feel like there may be other things that you’ve learned that would be so helpful for couples where one or both are in this space.
Brad Johnson: Just one last thing on the EA.
Christa Hardin: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: Brooke’s amazing. I tell her all the time. She makes our marriage better and it’s not a joke. It’s reality. She’s air traffic control between do business, do life, and making sure the big rocks are on the life side to where before I had that, the business would push the life off the calendar and assume that created conflict between us, right? So, I can’t say I feel like an EA or a virtual assistant is a hack in life that a lot of people do not take advantage of. So, please do if you’re out there struggling with that. Back to the Enneagram question, I think just in general, regardless of what the numbers are between spouses, it’s just an awareness thing. It’s so many people have these blind spots, which we both still have, even knowing the Enneagram for close to a decade now.
But it’s almost like you’ve developed a different lens to look through, a different vocabulary to use. We actually just had a therapy session this week. And that’s been it brought us back to coaching, making sure we stay good. And there were some big stressors on the business side the last couple of weeks that was kind of the normal whirlwind of business was amplified by 10X. I just came home the other night and I was exhausted. And in the past, it would be like, “Hey, how was your day, honey?” and I’d be like, “Ugh, like I don’t really want to talk about it.” And Sarah would almost take offense to that. Like, I didn’t want to let her in. In reality, my battery was done.
Sarah Johnson: And also, I created a story in my head. It’s a 6. I’m like, “Oh, this could be or this, or gosh, hope not that.”
Brad Johnson: Oh, are we still going to be able to be in this house? Are we going to be on the street corner in a box?
Christa Hardin: Right. She’s negatively changed you in 5 seconds flat, maybe 3.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. And so, I said, “Hey, honestly, I’m kind of exhausted like all day has been talking about this situation. If it’s cool, I really don’t feel like talking about it.” And in the past, Sarah would’ve like pushed. And she said, “Okay. Well, that’s all right. If you feel like talking about it, I’m here for you.” And she gave me space. And I think part of that was Enneagram, knowing each other, and also part of it was therapy. And it was just like a beautiful moment for me because she respected that boundary that I needed. And by the way, we talked about the next day once I’d had a good sleep. And so, I think the other side of a 7, now knowing myself better, oftentimes I would say, “I don’t want to talk about it,” and then I would never talk about it.
Sarah Johnson: Exactly.
Brad Johnson: I would talk about, “Oh, hey, here’s the five things that are amazing.” Just throw that one in the closet, shut the door. And the thing I’ve learned as a 7 is oftentimes I will run. In the past, before I knew this, I would ignore and run from the negative because I did not enjoy it, and I would just seek out positive. And now understanding kind of the dynamic between us, it’s like, “Okay, I need to revisit that.” It’s good for me to revisit it. It’s also good for our relationship to revisit it, but sometimes Sarah would want to do it in that moment, and I was not ready for it. And she’s been a lot better at giving me the space I need sometimes to be like, “Okay. Now, I’m ready to like dive in.”
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. I think it’s been a lot of work on both of our sides. I think you’ve become more vulnerable and shared a little bit more when you are ready and that took a lot of work, I think, for you. And then I can let go of a, I don’t feel like talking about it right now. I can be okay with that because of all the work that he has done. And I know we’re fine and we’re good and he will talk to me because he’s worked so hard on practicing that new skill.
Brad Johnson: So, last thing. And so, I think a 7 and a 6, like you know this better than me, but I feel like just knowing those two numbers, it could be a very dangerous tug of war if we’re not self-aware with each other. But when you bring the two together, it’s like this beautiful balance because it’s like, “Okay, we’re not overly optimistic. We’re not overly realistic, pessimistic.” And we kind of meet in the middle and it’s like, actually, this is the right path forward. But before that, it created a lot of conflict, just a lot of back and forth.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, that makes so much sense. There are some 7s and 6s listening. I know just some of my clients with those types are going to be listening but also some of the people, none of us know. And so, thank you for giving them hope that every pairing has its beautiful archetype to it. It’s glow. It’s way of shining and lighting up the world. And you have found that, and I hear you saying a surprising part of our work here with therapy, with Enneagram, with just growth over seasons is, wow, we can change. We can have that neurogenesis of new things and that’s possible even though we’re these types that one of them doesn’t like calendaring, one of them doesn’t like having to wait and guess.
And we have found a way together to have grace to take our breaths to say, “I can pause and wait because I know their hearts.” And that was, I mean, for two thinking types and then both of you have this access, especially, Brad, to body, and I almost feel like you have some 7 wing 8, Brad. I don’t know if you agree, but I feel like you have the go-getter of the 8 too in you. So, although you have access to your 6, and I heard the 5 arrow when you talked about your IT time and your focus time, it’s like when you’re in that much body space, and also, Sarah being such a thinking type where, of course, you have access to body space too, but it can take a little longer to get there as a 6. I feel like they’re possible to get to body, but again, back to even how you set up the conference to get to the heart was the goal here, too. And I think when couples find their hearts together and their vulnerability and their softness and their real space of like, ow, this hurt, I’m afraid, or I’m scared. I guess, even I’m sad, all the different deep feelings, words that are so hard for either type to get to because of all the mental and body processing, I would imagine that that was part of it too. And even I noticed your EA, if I remember correctly, Brooke is also a heart Triad person, so she could help you find your heart. Is that right?
Brad Johnson: These are two.
Christa Hardin: Okay. Yeah, that’s a heart type. Yeah, so she appreciates like, you need heart connection. I’m going to make time for you guys together. And in therapy, do you feel like that’s been big for you guys to come into that heart and emotional space versus just the body and thinking?
Brad Johnson: I think we should probably get super real here, right?
Christa Hardin: Yeah, yeah, that’d be awesome. Yes.
Brad Johnson: We’ll try not to break down into tears while we’re rolling.
Christa Hardin: Yes, that’s okay if you– well, I have this all the time with clients. I’ve found a way through this as a 7. Tears are good.
Brad Johnson: No, it is wild. That is one thing that therapy has done for me has actually started to, it’s okay to be sad. Like, it’s hard for a 7 sometimes to embrace. So, the truth is, so founded Triad November 1st, 2020, and right on the back end of COVID, which I think honestly, looking back, we were already kind of trending to like a disconnected and I think a lot of people…
Sarah Johnson: Before Triad.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. And it was just like Sarah’s family is like– they’re the family like brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles. There’s a birthday party for everybody, right? Yeah, they’re just a very close-knit family.
Christa Hardin: Oh, sweet.
Brad Johnson: And that was just ripped away for a year. And so, I think already there was some like underlying just disconnect and then that was kind of happening here a bit. And so, then started company and kind of rose-colored glasses, not knowing what I was getting myself into, my business partner Shawn. It’s kind of like the honeymoon phase. Oh, this will be amazing. And then reality sets in, and we were in our favorite place in the world, which is wine country. We were out in Napa, and this was February of 2021, actually right around Valentine’s Day. And so the optimist in me is like, oh, this will be amazing.
And it was a day of wine tasting and we were sitting there that evening, and Sarah was, I could just tell something was off. And in reality, something was off with me too. I was just ignoring it. And she said, “Hey, I think we need to talk.” And kind of like pulled me out of the party. And so, we went and sat down privately and she said, “Hey, I think we might need to separate.” And that was, I mean, three and a half months in the new business venture. A lot of stress. Building a team, leaving a paycheck behind. Literally, I didn’t take a paycheck for two years, starting a company. So, there was the money stress. There was just a lot of stressors.
And thank God that I had had a mentor in Michael Hyatt that to me said therapy’s okay. It’s okay for guys to go to therapy. And he had kind of shared a vulnerable story of his life when he was kind of in workaholic mode, five daughters, his wife had sat him down. And so, Sarah and I talked that night, and that was the night we decided we needed to start couples therapy. And oh, my gosh, thank God, we did. It was like, why didn’t we start year one, versus– it was just the stressors had gotten to the point, things weren’t good. So, now, we are 23 and a half years, three years into couples therapy weekly. Four years. Yeah, four years.
And back to therapy and therapy coaching, like in business, everybody does coaching. I do business coaching. I do golf coach. I’ve got a trainer at the gym that’s my coach, but then they resist a therapist because, oh, that’s something’s wrong with me or it’s like, no, that’s just coaching in a different aspect of up here for you or here in the most important relationships in your life. And so, I think what happened with us is we finally started doing the work because the pressures had gotten so high that we probably should have been doing year one of marriage. And that’s like advice we give to a lot of couples is don’t resist therapy. Embrace it. And so, anyway, that was like a lot of that journey. I’m rambling here a bit, but…
Christa Hardin: That’s so good. No.
Brad Johnson: The pressures of being an entrepreneur are real. That’s why there’s a lot of drug abuse, alcoholism, divorce, health issues. And I think just it’s really hard to be an entrepreneur. Most people, it’s a rollercoaster some days. And being able to work on yourself and work with each other through those relationship things, with all those other external stressors, I don’t know where we’d be without it, but I wouldn’t want to know. I don’t know.
Christa Hardin: Thank you for being…
Brad Johnson: In short, I’m glad we started therapy and we had the Enneagram too.
Christa Hardin: And I’m glad I see Sarah’s courage there and I say that nothing against Brad, but as a fellow 7, I know what he’s talking about when he says. We can just gloss over like even anything, anything huge, anything. And so, it takes courage to come against that, because not only are 7s that way, but they’re very convincing, and maybe for a little while. Sarah’s a 6, so she is like, I was not buying them, but like most people, it can be bought and they won’t dig deeper. 6s will dig deep around everywhere and like call you on it, and they understand because they sit next to the 7 on the Enneagram. They really do get what’s happening with the quick thinking. And yet, there’s this sense in Sarah, something’s not right, something’s not right, which you said you had too, Brad, but Sarah, I just want to say amazing job on using your virtue of courage once again to say like, this has to happen or we’re not going to make it.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah, yeah. We had to face it straight on. I mean, it wasn’t good up at that point. We had arguments and there was crying and all that, but of course, every couple has some of that. But whatever I shared that evening, it was real and raw. And he saw it. Thank God.
Christa Hardin: Oh, yes, I love that you picked it up. So many people don’t. So, I do want to commend you as well because there’s reasons why 7s don’t talk about their stuff. It’s hard. It feels like death to us. I talked to you about this, I think back on your podcast or at the event, but 7s were kinetic movers. That’s how we feel safe. We still need safety like 5s and 6s, but we find it through movement and doing. And so, to slow him down to say, stop, that’s extremely difficult, I’m sure. So, good job to you too.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. It was interesting not to keep talking about therapy, but…
Christa Hardin: Yeah. No, that’s good.
Sarah Johnson: And of course, we’re at the beginning stages of therapy. I’m all like, oh, he’s all in the wrong, and he’s like, oh, he’s all in the wrong, that sort of thing. But I could see his 7. He would just talk in circles and I’m like, I know what the therapist was trying to ask him, and he just kind of went this way. And then now, he literally will come in, spill it out. He might cry and then he is laughing in five minutes and that’s 20 minutes of session. And I’m like, “Man, we are getting our money’s worth now, aren’t we?”
Brad Johnson: A good therapy session is you cry and laugh ideally in that order. You end with the laugh.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, agreed. Correct. We teach that.
Sarah Johnson: But that’s a 7 doing a lot of work, right?
Christa Hardin: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: I think, with us, the 7 in me, I knew things were not right, but I didn’t want to admit it. And this optimism of like, hey, we’re always going to be okay. I’m not going anywhere.
Christa Hardin: Right.
Brad Johnson: And Sarah’s like, no, I am going to go somewhere if we change these behaviors. And so, it was kind of…
Sarah Johnson: Because I felt you had already gone somewhere.
Brad Johnson: I was. The truth is, I was going somewhere.
Sarah Johnson: I was not even thinking about it.
Brad Johnson: So, the stress of entrepreneurship, here’s something like I realized looking back and I didn’t in the moment. So, COVID happens, like all of these relationships, you’re not hanging out with friends. Like, I think, as you look at all the studies, divorce rates have spiked since COVID, right? Because a lot of the conflict where people be like, hey, I’m going to do a girls’ night out or a guy’s night out, where you kind of created some space. There was no space. And so, a lot of that conflicts would just stay between couples. And I had that. And the stresses of entrepreneurship piling on me.
Christa Hardin: Right.
Brad Johnson: That whole thing was like, I just took 12 rounds of boxing at the office all day and I just didn’t have the energy or the time. So, what would I do? I fell deep into the rabbit hole of sports cards. I would just go down to the basement. I’m looking at auctions. And I went to 5, but like not a healthy 5. It was like an avoidance, the situation. And then Sarah looks up and I’ve got a spare bedroom full of sports cards. And she’s like, “What the hell’s going on here?” It’s like, he’s not talking to me. And in hindsight, that was me avoiding and distracting myself and not actually leaning in when I needed to in that moment. But that didn’t get unpacked until later. And now, I have a sports card shop, so I solved it, got all the cards out of the house.
Christa Hardin: That’s amazing.
Sarah Johnson: As long as it’s out of the house.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, that’s so true. And you just like bless so many 5s and like my couples with 5s and be like, listen to this episode, because sometimes again, we don’t realize. We’re just like, I could see a 7 going, well, I don’t want to bother her with it and I want to make sure I’m positive so I have enough energy for work, so I’ll do this fun thing. And then like Ian Cron’s newest book, The Fix. It’s like we get fixated on that and that’s often where the 5s go. So, Sarah’s like, hey, whatever you’re doing, it needs to be healthy and it needs to be deeper healing work. She might have not had the awareness of how to articulate that or even what she needed, but you got there together through therapy and I appreciate you saying you’ve taken some time vulnerably as well, because a lot of people do want the quick fix and it’s a process, and it’s not that everyone spends forever in therapy, but there’s a joy to it. I know from a lot of my longer-term couples, some of them I’ve been seeing for a decade, because it’s almost like touchpoint sometimes too. Like, we see you monthly or something. But I think that what’s beautiful is you realize there’s deep dives we can do here and we can stay more toward thriving than just surviving.
And then I also appreciate how you told everybody today, even within therapy, and something else we’re going to talk about in a minute, which you do to shore yourselves up weekly. There are still going to be weeks where you just feel like surviving. So, thanks for inadvertently saying that too. This is a stressful field. So, anyone thinking about going to business together or just thinking about marriage together, life has its stresses even yet, right?
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Can I say one thing about therapy. So, you kind of mentioned it.
Christa Hardin: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: This could be Enneagram too. I don’t know, I mean, it could happen outside of therapy. When we were in that space of, I just called it a doom loop, that’s what we were in, there was not a me looking myself in the mirror and saying, here’s where Brad’s not showing up. And honestly, I don’t think Sarah was doing that either. It was, here’s all the stuff you’re screwing up. Here’s all the stuff you’re screwing up. And the first probably six months of therapy, I don’t know how many timeouts Megan, our therapist, had to do of like, “Hey, Brad, we’re talking about you, not Sarah, so let’s focus on you.” The same for Sarah, where she would kind of call a timeout and it was like, “Let’s assess your behaviors, not the partners.” And I will tell you, it was like we had dug ourself a big hole. And we had to slowly inch our way out of that. Oh, yeah, it took lots of work.
And I think that’s probably where a lot of people give up on therapy is like, they’ve done a month of sessions and they’re like, this isn’t getting better. It’s actually getting worse, because you’re actually examining all of this stuff that’s off and pulling it back out of the closet. And so, I would just give advice and give hope to any couple that might be in that season. Like, do the work and commit to it. And I promise there can be a happy ending. It took way longer than either of us would have liked. Do you think six months?
Sarah Johnson: Oh, at least.
Brad Johnson: At least, yeah.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. And then we could go back to the Enneagram too and be like, okay, we have clear minds and we can. So, we were just in a spot where the tools that we once had, they weren’t accessible. So, we had to get through that season and then we could access all those tools again and then we created new ones.
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Christa Hardin: Wow. That’s beautiful. And I think that you capitalized when you said, please don’t give up if you find yourselves flailing and a little worse for a little while because you’re finally doing the deep dive work. And what I often tell my couples is it is a jungle out there. As much as I can be a 7 and say, life is so fun, there’s a lot of bad things too in the world. And when you can fight together even against those things as a family, it’s worth it to do the hard work because you’re saving your unit as a family. Like, you’re not just saving the marriage, you’re saving generations ahead from having to deal with just different toils we’ve all known that people can survive and often do, and sometimes divorce is necessary, but that when you can save a family and heal it, it’s such a gift to so many because you just saved your entire group here.
And I just really want to name that because our communities matter. I often have couples who are going through big things like infidelity, and they’re like, now my friends don’t want to hang because their wives are all worried that I’m going to do that to their wives. And like, it goes so, so much farther than any of us realizes it when we give up. So, I know therapy’s hard work, but it’s really beautiful that you can tell people like it’s worth it, and we saved our marriage and our family.
Sarah Johnson: And I really hope our kids have seen that because they saw a lot figuring back and forth.
Christa Hardin: Of course, yeah.
Sarah Johnson: And that was probably very, very hard for them. But then they’re also seeing a reconnection and forgiveness and apologies in front of the– so I think they can trust in us and in that marriage process that it’s safe.
Brad Johnson: I love that you brought that up, Christa, because unfortunately, we’re getting to the age where we’ve had some friends where they went through divorce and if this isn’t right, it sure can’t trickle down to the kids and be right. It starts here and yeah, our kids, it makes me sad, but it was a season. They saw us not show up as our best selves with each other, but to Sarah’s point, now they’ve seen things get better and now, they get really excited when I flirt with their mom in the kitchen. Our kids absolutely love that. It’s one of my favorite things to do.
Christa Hardin: My gosh. And she loves receiving it too, I know.
Sarah Johnson: Love it.
Brad Johnson: Most of the time.
Christa Hardin: Oh, my gosh. Well, lastly, before we end, of course, we’re going to talk about where everyone can find you two in your amazing pod in group. But first, I just wanted to say, of course, thank you, but also, you have a beautiful Sunday ritual that you’ve come to develop that I’d love to hear more about because you add questions in, even when you’re not at therapy, and I just thought that couples would really be blessed by that. I know I was. Well, first of all, this didn’t come year one in therapy. Okay?
Sarah Johnson: Like, we had to get to a space where we were able to communicate with each other and stay in the same room.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Be patient then. The fruit will come.
Sarah Johnson: It’s this kind of a joint thing with Megan, our therapist, and the two of us. So, as a 6, like we say, I like to, okay, let’s figure this out. Let’s plan this. And then he’s like, I cannot talk right now, and my head space is not there. So, this was perfect for me as a 6 and knowing like, okay, I can talk to him about it Sunday. If it’s still an issue, cool, he’ll be open to hearing and listening and working through it. And if it’s not, awesome, Sarah, you gave yourself space and you let time maybe take care of it. So, the first one that we ask each other and we take turns, I ask or he asks first, and the first one is, where did I show up for you this week? What are you thinking about me as a partner? So, start with that. And at the beginning stages, sometimes, it was rough. I was like, I can’t think of anything in that space.
Brad Johnson: There’d be crickets next. It’s like, oh, interesting.
Sarah Johnson: I can’t think of a darn thing.
Brad Johnson: Huh, well, next question.
Sarah Johnson: We always found something. We did. And then next was what feelings of hurt or frustration do you have or would you need me to hear about them? That was the, okay, I’ve been thinking about this thing that bothered me when you did this and it’s been so great where, I don’t know if I’m the one that has more of the issues because he’s glossing over everything I do, which is quite nice.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, that’s true. There is a benefit.
Sarah Johnson: I don’t make as many mistakes as he does.
Brad Johnson: You’re welcome.
Sarah Johnson: He was just open to hearing, and I also thought to myself like, is this important enough to share right now too? Is this really bothering me? Is this a me thing? So, we would share that. And then the next one was, how can I support you going into the next week? What might you need from me? And sometimes, we get into calendar logistics kinds of things. Sometimes we get into a lot of emotional support stuff that I might need or maybe of connection, maybe it’s an emotional or a physical connection that we’re needing. Maybe it’s Brad’s going to be traveling for the days. And he’s like, ah, I’m going to be out. Like, I just really need you to kind of…
Brad Johnson: Hold down the fort.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah, that’s his comment. Hold down the fort, a lot of times. The last one is, can you tell me something that you’re proud of? I think we added this later. Tell me something that you’re proud of that you did this week.
Brad Johnson: That’s a cool one.
Sarah Johnson: It’s really interesting. I really struggle with this one sometimes too. Is that a 6?
Christa Hardin: Yeah, absolutely, because humans, on top of all of this Enneagram, we’re wired for negatively scanning and we have thousands of negative thoughts a day. So, add 6 on top of it. Yes, you’re like under a pile. So, I love this question that you have to answer.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: Well, that’s a cool one because you get to brag on yourself a little bit. And I think what’s cool is, that’s the place you should be able to.
Christa Hardin: That’s true.
Brad Johnson: One other thing that we edited, we used to start with what feelings of frustration are you holding onto. So, it was like…
Christa Hardin: Yes. Don’t do that, no.
Brad Johnson: It’s very right out of the gates. Like, tell me where you screwed up this week.
Christa Hardin: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: What we did was, it’s the old compliment sandwich. Here’s all the awesome stuff you did. Oh, cool. Okay? And here’s some stuff you didn’t do so well. And I will say that little tweak was huge for both of us, I think, because it’s like you’re starting with build them up, and then, hey, here’s some opportunities maybe or some blind spots you didn’t see this week. And then the last question that we added recently, because we do a weekly date night or we try to.
Christa Hardin: Oh, I love that.
Brad Johnson: Sometimes we travel and all that. It doesn’t always happen. But that was a piece of advice I got a long time ago, is never stop dating when you get married. I mean, that’s what led to marriage. Don’t end it once you get married.
Christa Hardin: Exactly.
Brad Johnson: So, sometimes date nights, we get a little stale just because it’s like, you’ve gone to the same restaurant over and over and we want to keep it fresh and fun, and so, that was kind of the opportunity, like, hey, is there a new restaurant that opened you want to go check out this week? And so, it’s kind of a little bit of, hey, what sounds fun for date night this week? So, that was cool.
Sarah Johnson: And kind of looking at the stress level of the week, like, is Brad out two nights this week and then it’s date night? We want to stay in, make the kids go upstairs. We get the movie room kind of thing. Yeah. Also, about the feelings of frustration too. I think sometimes at the beginning, when things weren’t super great between the two of us, anytime he heard like, I wanted to talk about something or whatever, he thought it was a dig at him. And there were sometimes when I needed to talk or vent or maybe get a perspective, maybe not, maybe just have him list the thing. And he wasn’t able to listen because I’d been going at him about all the things that were wrong between the two of us.
So, I think this is also a space where I can say, hey, I just want to share something with you that I’m stressed out about. I don’t really need you to fix it. I think we’ve gotten a little better about that communication too, like the feelings of hurt might not be just between the two of us. It might be, I’m upset about a relationship over here and I kind of want you to hear it or I just want you to be aware.
Christa Hardin: That’s so good. And is this separate from your date nights? It sounds like it is, most of the time.
Sarah Johnson: Yes. We try to do this Sunday morning before church time, but…
Brad Johnson: With coffee.
Christa Hardin: Oh, that’s good, yeah.
Brad Johnson: In the morning.
Sarah Johnson: It’s our coffee and connect.
Christa Hardin: Oh, my gosh, that’s so cute. I love this. This is really neat. I mean, as a marriage specialist, I’m just honing a bit because I have a monthly meeting framework that Wes and I do, and it’s similar, so that’s so funny. But it’s missing an important piece and I want to make sure I get this right for the audience and for myself that it sounds like after, first, the positive, then the thing that needs to be addressed, and then right after that, you said, it’s like what do we have coming up in the week? Which I think is neat. Is that how you say it?
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. Well, it’s like how can I support you?
Christa Hardin: Yes. That’s what it is. I love that.
Sarah Johnson: So, a lot of times, we do get into the calendar stuff.
Christa Hardin: That’s right, okay, but it’s…
Sarah Johnson: Sometimes, he’s so into the calendar stuff.
Brad Johnson: Well, but I think like if I look back where a lot of conflict happened, you didn’t tell me you had a dinner Tuesday night you had to be at. There’s kids ball games, and so, it’s kind of previewing the week in advance. And obviously, Brooke helps a ton with that, just keeping the priorities the priorities. But I mean, with three kids, 14, 13, and 9, there’s lots of other activities that are moving around that we have to coordinate with. So, it’s almost like some of it is, like just making sure we’re on the same page. And some of it might be like, Sarah’s a volleyball coach. Hey, got to get you Tuesday night, Friday night. Can you handle the kids? Like, I got a lot going on.
Christa Hardin: That’s so good.
Brad Johnson: And sometimes, it might be like, this is a crazy week at work, I just need your emotional support at home. Like, really lean in a little bit. I’m getting all of this at work that’s kind of getting bombarded on me. So, it’s a cool way to just kind of preview and frame the week and…\
Sarah Johnson: We’re open to adapting and changing questions, so I’m sure your listeners have great ideas too.
Christa Hardin: Yes. They should tell us if they do. Guys, definitely write in if you do because we’re always growing together. I mean, and it’s pessimistic to say failing forward, but we’re growing forward either way. And that’s something I’m going to add now to my monthly framework. Those who are going through my Enneagram intensive, we do it, it’s an hour and a half, and they need that because they’re going through the intensive, and so, they hit that question. But those of us who are doing my 30-minute monthly meeting, I really am going to add that. So, thank you because it makes me feel like I might’ve missed it as a blind spot as a 7, quite honestly, because it’s a very vulnerable heart space question for me to even tell Wes how he can support me this week, because I’m a 7 and I don’t need anything except for a little bit of a fun date night, some physical intimacy, whatever it is normally that couples do. But that is like extra next level of vulnerability. So, you’ve given me some homework. Do you think, guys?
Sarah Johnson: There you go, Christa.
Brad Johnson: Well, Christa, we’re happy to share them if you want to put them in the show notes. Also…
Christa Hardin: I do.
Brad Johnson: They are in the show notes on the pod you did, on my pods.
Christa Hardin: Yes, thank you.
Brad Johnson: If they want more of this and more an interview of you, they can hop over to that one too.
Christa Hardin: Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you guys so much. This has been such a gift to me, to all of us here. Tell us how we can find you so others can keep learning and growing with you.
Brad Johnson: So, on the business side, so we mentioned Triad. So, most of the social handles are Triad Partners, pretty much all of them, LinkedIn, IG, Facebook. Also, TriadPartners.com is the actual company website. And then the podcast, which is where you were kind enough to come on and share your wisdom. So, it’s DBDL as in Do Business, Do Life podcast, so DBDL podcast on all the social handles. And then BradleyJohnson.com is where all of those episodes live because somebody still won’t sell me BradJohnson.com. So, if they’re listening and you have it, call me up and I’ll make an effort to you.
Christa Hardin: Right. Oh, my gosh, that’s so unfair. I feel that for you. The limit, I hate that. I love you.
Brad Johnson: Between the Brad Johnsons out there, that’s the downside.
Christa Hardin: That is true. It’s a great name, but there’s a lot of them. Both of you have these beautiful names, Sarah and Brad Johnson.
Brad Johnson: Sarah and Brad.
Christa Hardin: That’s so great.
Brad Johnson: Common names in the…
Christa Hardin: Right. But you guys are anything but common, and your podcast is amazing. I loved recently your John Acuff episode. Amy Porterfield is one of my favorites. So, you guys are just doing huge things. You have superstars come and speak at your events. You are truly changing the world. And so, we’re so thankful for you to take care of yourselves and even help assure us up to. Thank you guys so much for being here with us.
Sarah Johnson: Happy to be here. Thank you.
Brad Johnson: Thank you so much. It was an honor. Loved it, Christa.
