The Science Every Advisor Needs to Know About Human Connection

Brad Johnson: Welcome back to Do Business. Do Life. Excited to have Shasta Nelson here with us today. Welcome to the show, Shasta.

Shasta Nelson: Thanks! Happy to be here.

Brad Johnson: Well, we got to dive in. There’s just so much to cover. You have done a lot of work in kind of the science of connection, friendships, how that plays out in life and business, and you’re on the right show for that. So, as we kind of kick this thing off, I’d really love to dive into just the science. I mean, we’ve got all these feelings and emotions as humans, but what’s the actual science behind what bonds and connects people?

Shasta Nelson: I love it. We’re just diving straight in. So, when we look at all the research, all the social research out there on what builds healthy marriages, what makes for a good team, what bonds us to clients, what builds trust, what makes us be friends with some people and not other people, there are so many different things we’re studying, all of them have three things in common. And we can use different words for these three things, but everything else is either a synonym of these three words, an outcome of these three words, or an illustration of these three words. So, what’s super powerful is when you understand these three things, you can start any relationship, you can deepen any relationship, you can repair any relationship.

So, I’m just going to draw like a triangle. Everyone can picture that in their heads. And at the base, the bottom of that triangle is positive emotions. So, you just named all, we have all these feelings and emotions, and this is where they live is at the bottom of that, the foundation of our relationships. We are like animals. We are going to gravitate to the people, the places, and the experiences that leave us feeling more pleasant emotions than not. And we know the difference between when we get a phone call from somebody and our body goes, “Ugh.” Like, that feeling of we don’t consciously think, “Oh, I’m not getting enough pleasant emotions from that relationship,” but we are registering it. Our bodies know.

And we also know the difference between getting a dinner invitation from somebody, and we’re like, “Yes, let’s make that happen,” and we are trying really hard to move things around to do it. And one of the biggest differences between those relationships is how much positive emotion we get. And I’ll just end here by saying the science shows that we need to have five positive or pleasant emotions for every negative emotion. So, when you think about our businesses that we’re running, there’s going to be stressors, there’s going to be hard things we have to talk about or do, or have a hard time getting in touch with each other, and get annoyed or disappointed. But our goal is to be like, “What can I do? That ratio of five to one, what can I do to decrease any negative friction that we don’t want it ongoing? And what can I do to increase the quantity of the pleasant touch points, the pleasant feeling emotions?”

And that’s true for our marriages. That’s true for our friendships. That’s true for our businesses. So, yeah, that one makes a lot of sense. I would imagine that when you look back at your life and your business, you’re going to dive into the projects, the clients, the people, the experiences that leave you feeling more pleasant, right?

Brad Johnson: Yeah. It’s interesting when you said you get that phone call because you’re talking to a bunch of financial advisors out there, and they know exactly what you’re talking about. They look like, “Ah, that client?” or “Oh, that client,” you know? And the other thing that, just as I think about that, if it’s that five to one positive to negative, if I get an after-hours phone call, it doesn’t feel so hard to pick that up. You know, it’s like, “Ah, they must need something.” I actually want to jump on the call versus the other way, five negative to one positive. It’s like, “Ugh, I really don’t need that energy tonight when I’m trying to unplug.” So, is there anything additional science behind that or thoughts that you have just in those sort of interactions?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. I mean, there’s so much science. I mean, one of the really fascinating things is that it shows like this is interesting for business and friendship too, is that there’s one study that shows that when we meet somebody new, there’s two questions our brains are like trying to ask. And one is like, how capable and competent is this person? And that obviously means different things in different contexts. And the other question is, like, how warm is this person? And what’s so fascinating is that I think we often show up, like when we walk into a room to network, we show up thinking the first question is the most important, like, “I have to show them I’m impressive. I’m competent. I have a title. I dress well.” And we often show up thinking we need to show how capable and impressive we are.

The research shows our brains actually answer the other question first, which is, how warm is this person? And they harken back to like our ancestors. When you kind of lived in a small village or out on a hill by yourself, out in the prairie or the hills, when a stranger comes up over the hill, you have to immediately decide, “Is this somebody here who’s intending my downfall or like is going to be a benefit to me?” And we ask the question first, like, “Is this a friend? Is this like an ally or an enemy?” And we have to answer that immediately before we know how capable, competent they are. That will be our second question is how valuable is this stranger. If they’re an ally, do they come with trading secrets? Do they come with good news from another town?

Or if they’re an enemy, like how big of an army do they have? How big or skilled of a fighter? How mad are they? But, yeah, we have to immediately assess. And so, that’s really powerful for the positivity part of our brain, is that people are judging us first and foremost off of how warm we are. How do we leave the other person feeling after that phone call? How do we leave them feeling after they meet us? And they may not walk away consciously evaluating that saying, “Oh, I felt inspired,” and I felt this, and she smiled at me. And that’s four positives. Like, we might not be walking away consciously doing the math, but we absolutely are taking stock of that.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. And what’s interesting on that is you have that behavior when you’re a third grader, and you still have that behavior when you’re 45 years old like me. You walk into a room of strangers, maybe you’re at a mastermind or a conference, and you’re kind of doing the look around, “Oh, that person looks nice. They have a smile on their face.” Like, I feel like you have a natural gravitation towards those sorts of people, which makes sense. It’s like back in the day, if it was somebody that was going to kill you, you kind of had to figure that out pretty quick, right?

Shasta Nelson: Yes, instinctually. So, I mean, that’s really basic for all of us, and we can kind of skip over this, how basic it is. And yet, when I score companies and individuals and partnerships, and relationships, this is most often the lowest of the three scores.

Brad Johnson: Interesting.

Shasta Nelson: We don’t consciously go in thinking, “What can I do to help this person feel better about themselves and their life for having been in my presence?” Like, we’re usually walking in being like, “How do I feel? And I’m insecure, and who’s coming up to me?” And so, showing up with just a conscious saying, “What can I do to like…? Is there an ongoing annoyance that I can solve? Like, do we need to set a boundary? Do I need to have a conversation? Do I need to forgive? Like, what can we do to bring that negative down, and what can I do to bring that positive up?” So, that’s the first one. The second requirement…

Brad Johnson: May I ask one follow-up question before we get into the other two?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Johnson: Alright. So, I have a philosophy, but I want to see if the science actually plays out this way. So, have you found any differences in the, like, if you do this study of warmness or kindness in like the size of the city or town a person grew up in? Because my experience, small town Kansas, 2,000 people, kind of the golden rule of treat others as you want to be treated. It’s like if you’re a jerk, everybody in town knows about it, right? Like, your grandma’s like lecturing you when you walk in the door, where I love New York City. It’s the complete opposite of what I grew up in, but call it the kind of big coast like, “Oh, they cut me off in traffic.” I flip them off. I’ll never see them again the rest of my life. So, it’s almost like, “Well, if I piss them off, who cares?”

By the way, very broad. I love my New York City people too, but do you find any science that backs like the size of the environment you grew up with, with kind of the warmness just kind of instilled in people? Thoughts there?

Shasta Nelson: To some degree with culture, for sure. So, when we look at like with different cultures, what I will say is that all of us will come with different strengths. We’re going to come with different genders, we’re going to come with different life experiences, different homes, regions. What’s important is that each of us figures out how we do this positive. So, if I’m doing positivity with a client, does that look like a Christmas card? Does that look like a bottle of wine, which is different than positivity with my spouse, right? Like, we’re going to have touch involved a little bit more, and we’re going to have more meaningful moments. And so, how we express that positivity, certainly to your point, will be cultural to a large degree, like what feels comfortable to us.

But at the end of the day, no matter what our culture is, and it’s so interesting because we could go on the New York City big city thing. I mean, there are people who feel like judged in a small town, right? Who don’t feel like they fit in.

Brad Johnson: Very true. Very true.

Shasta Nelson: They feel like very stifled, and it’s when they’re in a big city that they feel accepted and the diversity. So, I think what we have to just be cognizant of each of us individually is just like, what am I intentionally doing to help think through how the other person is feeling in this interaction and in this experience? And my personality will do that differently. An introvert who’s quiet does not need to do it the same way I might do it, but we both need to find a way to do that. And before we move on the positivity, I do want to highlight this does not mean being a positive person. That does not always mean saying positive things. It doesn’t mean just always being the encourager. That can leave people feeling judged and like their grief isn’t validated.

So, we can vent, and we can complain in this category. It just means that, do we feel judged after it, or do we feel supported? So, at the end of the day, it’s more about all of us trying to be more intentional about leaving the other person, basically, feeling good about themselves. At the end of the day, that’s who we’re going to grab. We need a reward. We’re going to all have to be in relationships with people that we don’t get reward from family or people we work with, clients. But we’re going to gravitate, when we have the option to choose, we’re going to choose the people who give us the most reward.

Brad Johnson: And don’t forget the nonverbals. A smile goes a long way.

Shasta Nelson: 100%. And when we are meeting somebody new, we’re not going to show up with gifts and big expressions of positivity, but those little things you just named are the beginning at the bottom of that triangle for sure.

Brad Johnson: I remember the gift of How to Win Friends and Influence People. It’s like, just smile. It’s amazing what that’ll do.

Shasta Nelson: That is it, and eye contact, remembering their name, all that matters, yeah.

Brad Johnson: Well, cool. We better get to number two and number three. So, what else is on the list?

Shasta Nelson: So, as we move up the triangle, the consistency is the second one. So, consistency, we’ve never built a friendship without repetition, without shared experiences, without ongoing interactions with each other. This is where we spend time together. This is where we log the hours together. Interestingly, a study out of University of Kansas talks about, at the bottom of it, when we’re going from strangers and we’re becoming casual friends, it takes us about 30 to 50 hours before we feel like somebody’s like, “Yeah, they’re my friend.” It takes about 80 to 100 hours before we feel like we’re good friends. And then we self-report that we have spent about 200 hours with the people that we feel like are our best, best friends.

So, even if you and I met today and we were like, “You and I are going to become best friends,” like we could both be on board with that, and it’s still going to take us a long time to figure out, “Are you the friend who calls me? Do I send memes to you? How often do we talk? What is it we do together? How much do we do with our families? How much do we just do the two of us? How do you act when you’re stressed? What lights you up?” Like, it’s just going to take time to get to know each other. So, I think a lot of us want to feel close to people at the bottom of the triangle, and we just have to kind of remind ourselves that it takes ongoing, consistent interactions. There are so many people I’ve met over the years that I could have become really good friends with.

And it’s not because I’m not amazing, and because they’re not amazing. It’s because we just didn’t have a pattern in which we were going to keep seeing each other, and that friendship never happened. So, that is the number one reason a lot of friendships don’t happen is we never get that momentum or that consistency together. And this is the number one reason we do make friends at work is the number one place we make friends as adults, because that consistency is there.

Brad Johnson: Proximity, right? I mean you’re…

Shasta Nelson: Yes. Boy, that falls in that category. Absolutely.

Brad Johnson: You’re in their orbit, in their environment. And what’s interesting, and I think most that listen to this are out of school and in their profession, if you’ve left a job, it’s wild. It’s like, “Wow, I was really tight with them,” and then it just slowly drifts, most of the time, right? Unless it’s that one of those really deep relationships. Can you speed it up? So, you kind of gave the hours, the 30 to 50, 80 to 100 is good, 200 plus hours if you want to become a best friend. Could you do those 200 straight hours like, “Hey, I go on a trip for a month,” and that’s all jam-packed in one, or how does that work?

Shasta Nelson: No, absolutely. I mean, I think there are obviously different ways of spending time with each other. I don’t put those numbers out in front of us that we actually need to be counting them, but it does help remind us that it’s going to take several interactions before we start feeling more comfortable around each other. We absolutely, as kids, we know the slumber parties and going away to summer camp. I mean, when you have compressed time, like you bond, you’re spending, like you think about as an adult, if we were to meet a new friend for lunch even once a month, which most of us wouldn’t commit to with a brand new person, but think about an hour and a half for lunch, and you think about how many months at a year you’re going to be like, “Yeah, we were friends,” but like, you could go spend a whole weekend together and definitely accelerate that process for sure.

What we would want if it were going to be an ongoing relationship is, yes, go spend a week together, but then you still have to create a pattern. So, how often do we interact, and when do we keep staying in each other’s lives? And the patterns that are the strongest are the ones where we have the most things holding us together. And we practice different ways of being together. So, you gave a great example, Brad, of like leaving a job or some of us like move away from a neighborhood, or we stop going to that church or something. And like our friends who we know from that container, we stepped out of that container. And the only way we can stay in friendship with them is to create a new container, to create a new pattern, a new way we spend time together.

We used to be paid to both show up at the same job, and we were friends in that context. Now, we have to actually take responsibility for our friendship and figure out how often we get together and keep that pattern going.

Brad Johnson: So, before we get off of consistency, one of the things, that my wife and I talked a lot about, I think it was an Andy Stanley podcast, and he said as a parent, him and his wife’s number one goal was to create a home and environment that their kids wanted to come back to after they didn’t have to. So, this might have been on that podcast, it might have been an article or something, but it talked about rituals to where you look at like those family rituals. We’re right around the holidays as we record this in December. When you look at consistency, how much do rituals matter?

Shasta Nelson: Oh, I love you asking great questions, Brad. Rituals are a big, big part, and that’s probably one of the strongest things we can do to keep up a relationship is have it be something, A, that’s scheduled in regularly that we can just keep coming back to, whether that’s an annual guy’s weekend or whether that’s our client appreciation breakfast or something where there’s like the thing that we do and we kind of calls us together, but anything we can schedule in that kind of becomes a routine. Your example that you just gave with Andy Stanley, notice it has for him, in order for that to be accomplished, he has to have consistency and he has to have positivity, right? Because a ritual that doesn’t feel good isn’t going to be something to come back to. But yeah, if it was meaningful, we’re going to find out.

Brad Johnson: Good point. The annual review with the boss that you’re not a big fan of, that’s not going to be a fun ritual. Yeah.

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. So, when you think about our workplaces, a consistency is such a powerful thing to say. And our financial advisors are so good at this because you know your sales, you know your clients. You have a system for staying in touch with them. And one of the things you’re just naming that can make such a difference is anytime we can make memories with somebody, anytime we do something that’s memorable, it logs into our brain in a different way than just it’s important to have the consistent touch points and kind of just checking in, that kind of a thing. But anytime we can make a memory together, I always think like, would I take a picture of us doing this together? And if the answer is yes, you’re probably doing something memorable.

Brad Johnson: Is there anything else? I mean, I’ve been around a while now. I’ve got lots of things I remember, and I’ve got some I’ve forgotten. My wife reminds me of the ones I’ve forgotten, of course. What makes a good memory? Is there certain core criteria? I love the picture example, but anything else like, “Hey, if I want to create an experience for my clients, for my family, for my spouse that’s memorable,” what makes a good memory?

Shasta Nelson: Yes. So, you want to go back to that list of positive emotions. So, anything that’s inspiring, anything that leaves people feeling proud, anything that leaves people feeling in awe, anything that brings delight, anything that brings laughter, anything that feels like an act of service, like really showing up in a hard time. So, anything that, like, here’s where you want to tie these two things together in a big way, is start by asking yourself, how do I want my clients to feel? And name three words. I want my clients to feel delighted, I want them to feel seen, and I want them to feel safe. Now, you can reverse engineer it and say, “Okay. So, what would leave my clients feeling safe?” And just asking the question, you start brainstorming like, “I think they would feel safe if they heard from me every so often, this thing.

I’d say they would feel safe if I gave them this portfolio, if I did this,” and you can start brainstorming. So, you’re basically engineering the process to get them to safe. Now, what would leave them feeling delighted? Okay. Well, something unexpected like, okay, but like this is where you want to start with, how do I want my wife to feel? How do I want my kids to feel? And you start with that pleasant emotion, and then you start kind of reverse engineering it. So, what activities help do that thing that would help lead to that feeling? Yeah. And that’s how we do, like I do event planning that way. I do vacation planning, like thinking through ahead of time. Don’t just leave it to chance like, “I hope we have a good time.” What kind of an experience do I want to have, and how do I hope that everybody who’s engaged feels, and what can I do to increase those odds of that happening?

Brad Johnson: All right. I’ve got a question that might skate on the edge of positive here. I heard, I think this was the Airbnb guys. They said one of the things that kind of puts a scratch in the record to make something memorable is to get a little uncomfortable, which might not be a positive emotion. Maybe it’s me and my friends are going skydiving or doing… So, it’s like just kind of pushing the comfort zone. But once you get through it, I feel like there’s this sense of accomplishment. So, how might that play in?

Shasta Nelson: I love that. So, that goes to our third requirement of all healthy relationships. So, we are building this triangle.

Brad Johnson: Ah, perfect. A great segue, then.

Shasta Nelson: So, our third line is vulnerability. So, positivity is what makes a relationship feel rewarding. Consistency is what leaves a relationship feeling reliable or safe or trusting. And vulnerability is what makes a relationship feel meaningful. Vulnerability is, of what comes to most of our minds, is like talking about hard things, and that certainly can be as we move up the triangle, but vulnerability is also talking about great things going on in our lives. It’s sharing our lives, it’s feeling known, it’s starting to interact with each other on who we each are, what lights us up, what our strengths are. So, none of us are going to feel really loved by somebody if we don’t feel known by that person. So, vulnerability is how we make sure that you feel seen in our relationship, and I feel seen in our relationship.

So, this is interesting, when it comes to friendship, we want those to both be feeling that way, mutual. I would love to hear from you. Like, when you’re thinking about financial advisors and clients, does it feel more one-directional? Like, is it more important? Do you feel like most situations, you know more about the clients, and it’s not a two-way street?

Brad Johnson: Great question. I heard it described one time as this was an advisor that was like coaching other advisors. And he said, which you have to realize when a prospect walks into your office the first time, they’re essentially getting financially naked in front of you, which is very vulnerable. Like, sometimes they’re talking about financial things they haven’t even talked to their spouse about, like, that’s how money works, right? Just depending on the relationship. So, I think, number one, it’s a good reminder for all advisors out there. Sometimes that’s the energy that’s walking into your conference room. So, I would say, to answer your question, I think it’s probably more one way, but I have seen the best advisors out there, they will kind of lead with, it’s almost like good bedside manner as a doctor.

Like, “Hey, I’m sure this seems really overwhelming. I’m sure this seems like you’re the only retiree that’s ever gone through this. Good news. I’ve seen this before. I’ve fixed this before. It’s going to be okay.” So, maybe it’s not necessarily them being vulnerable, it’s almost like them having empathy and understanding the feelings of that person coming across with whatever they’re sharing. So, I don’t know if that answers your question or not, but.

Shasta Nelson: Yes. And we can do so much more on vulnerability, but what you just described, I want to grab onto that teaching moment because we have to have some, we want like… I’m going to go back to the triangle. So, positivity is where it starts. Like, if I walk into your office and I just feel like not your warmth at all, or like you’re not paying attention to me, or you’re not valuing my time, it’s going to be very hard for you to kind of like make that up because I’m going to walk away with that feeling. But as we spend a little bit of time together, we have an office appointment. So, now we’re getting a little consistency. I’m putting my finances in front of you so we’re logging some time together, and then I am vulnerable.

I am showing you my finances, and most of us are walking in and hating that moment. And so, yeah, we’re feeling very, we’re judging ourselves. We’ve got all of our stories playing. What you just gave in that example is how relationships get built, is that then you went straight back to positivity. Your response to my vulnerability was, “You know what? This happens like this is common.” You’re helping normalize it. You’re helping me feel less judged. And you’re saying, “I can take care of this. I can help you.” So, you’re leaving me feeling hopeful. You’re leaving me feeling safer. You’re leaving me feeling accepted, and so then I’m going to be more likely to want to book another work with you, right? Log more consistency.

Every time we have some time together, we are going to get to know each other a little bit more. I’m going to learn that you have kids that are playing basketball, and you’re going to learn that I had a big dip in my finances this year. And like we’re going to learn a little bit more about each other every time. And what makes this relationship powerful is we have to go back to positivity. Like, how we end that meeting determines how I feel about the next one. And so, these three things, we can go back and dig deeper in vulnerability if we want to, but I just wanted to pull back. And so, that you were just giving an example of how relationships build, and that is these three things keep going over and over and over and over, and they start at the bottom of the triangle.

But as we increase our consistency, which we’re only going to do if it keeps feeling positive and meaningful, but as we move up that triangle, most of our relationships will stay at the bottom third of that triangle where it’s the widest. Hopefully, with our really good clients, with our close team members, with good friends in our lives, we’re like in the middle of that triangle, kind of in the top third. And that very top third is like that tip top is what I call friend intimacy. And those are the people that we are friendship intimacy, like there is depth up there. So, that means we have the highest level of consistency. We have history. We know that we can rely on each other. We’ve proven that we can interact and stay in touch with each other. We have the highest level of vulnerability, like we can talk to each other, less filtered. We’re showing up, and we know a lot about different areas of each other’s life.

And then we have high levels of positivity. We can say, “I love you,” and we can like be at your birthday party, and we might come up with a thoughtful gift. We might go on vacation together. So, at the top of the triangle, we’re having all three of those in like bigger, more intense ways. But most of our relationships will be at the bottom, and we can only move people to the top by practicing these three things. We cannot meet somebody and just be like, “Ooh, I like you. I’m putting you to the top.” Like, it has to climb. It’s incremental, and we have to build it.

Brad Johnson: Well, what I’m hearing you kind of say, it’s almost like a flywheel effect is like once the momentum gets going, if you have all three of those ingredients, does it ever not happen if you have all three of those ingredients?

Shasta Nelson: Nope. They don’t keep growing if you have all three of those. So, a lot of us will have friendships like in men’s, so like let’s talk personal for a second. In our culture, as men, we encourage friendships that are positivity and consistency. So, go do something together and have a good time, go to the bar, go play the game. A lot of men’s friendships, we’ve done a terrible job as a culture of encouraging vulnerability in men’s friendships and supporting that. And so, you can climb to the top with like one or two of them and not have all three. But a lot of men also report feeling like they don’t have as meaningful relationships and that they can’t really talk, and they don’t feel as safe in talking about those things.

So, you can have a strong social life, you can have good friends, and not have all three of them, but if you keep doing all three of those, you will move that relationship to the top. Now granted, there are relationships that get stuck halfway down if one person’s not really opening up. If I’m the only one that’s being vulnerable, at some point, it’s going to feel less meaningful. Or if I’m not opening up and somebody else is doing all the talking. So, certainly relationships get stuck for sure, but we can pretty much guarantee you that any relationship in your life that feels meaningful and healthy has practiced all three of these things. And any relationship that’s feeling less than or not super great right now, I can guarantee you we could dissect it and look at it. And you could pretty quickly identify which of these three would make the biggest difference to improving and repairing that relationship.

Brad Johnson: I a million percent agree with your take on men, the one that’s the ingredient that’s typically missing. I’m curious, with women, how does it typically play out?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, good question. I find that with most women, their lowest score is positivity. So, we’re being broad here, obviously, and I just want to go on record saying men are so capable of vulnerability and desire it at just the same levels. It is a cultural thing. It is not a gender thing. In other cultures, we have men who are the more vulnerable than the women and who have deeper friendships. So, it’s not a gender capability thing at all. It’s just what we’ve normalized here. And for women, we’ve normalized competition among women. We’ve kind of have this reputation sometimes of being catty, and I think we’re changing that, but collectively, we sometimes aren’t as warm, as encouraging, as uplifting to each other as we can be.

Brad Johnson: Okay. We can just bounce around this triangle for a while.

Shasta Nelson: Would you resonate with that? How would you reevaluate that?

Brad Johnson: Before I ask, I was trying to predict your answer. That would’ve been my guess because I feel like a lot of ladies get together. There’s consistency, right? I feel like much more vulnerability compared to guys, but sometimes it can be, I’m trying to… there’s no judgment here. Just like observation. It can be a little bit of like a gossip circle, maybe a little bit, “Oh, did you hear such and such about, you know?” and kind of like tearing others down versus building them up. Obviously, it depends on the group you’re in, but I’ve seen that behavior probably.

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. We can all do better. I mean, what’s so powerful, I always say to my audiences, is most of us have never read a book on friendship. Most of us have never taken a class. Most of us, like when I go in front of an audience, I often ask like, “Raise your hand if you’ve ever been to a workshop or a keynote speaker on friendship.” And no hands go up, and it’s like such a fun subject to teach because like everything and every one of our businesses rests on our ability to build relationships, but we just don’t teach to it. So, I’m always reminding all of us, like, have a ton of compassion for our friends. They don’t know what we now know. And we are kind of responsible for modeling that and for showing up and for teaching it and for spreading it.

But people are showing up just kind of instinctively, and most people have not had good modeling. We’re just kind of replicating what we’ve seen in TV, movies, or our parents, which wasn’t always that great. So, we’re all kind of doing our best trying to figure it out. But, yeah, we can all probably improve at least one of these. And that’s a good question for all of your listeners, before we just keep talking, is you listen to all three of these, which one would you say is the one that would make the biggest difference to your life if you were to pay more attention to it? And maybe you can ask it both ways, like which one would make the biggest difference to your friendships, to your personal relationships, and which one would make the biggest difference to your workplace, whether that’s your team, whether that’s your clients?

Where could you show up with more intention in one of these three areas? And maybe they’re the same, or maybe they’re different. I don’t know. How would you answer that? Are you willing to share your answers to that question, Brad?

Brad Johnson: Yeah, of course. I’ve worked a lot on vulnerability. So, my backstory, I’ve been an entrepreneur five years now, so Triad just turned five. Have a co-founder, Shawn.

Shasta Nelson: Congrats.

Brad Johnson: Thank you. That is an accomplishment. Not all businesses make it to five, so we’ll take it.

Shasta Nelson: It is huge. No, no, it’s very rare. Well done.

Brad Johnson: But I think as an entrepreneur, what you don’t always realize when you set out is all of the pressure that will sometimes come your way that’s like unintended. You didn’t build a business to say, “Hey, I want to have a bad day today,” or “Hey, I want to upset a team member that we didn’t communicate to properly.” But sometimes it just happens, as all groups of people, communication always can level up. And so, I think the vulnerability side, I’ve really had to work on the last five years, especially as a guy. I grew up on a farm, college football player. There’s not a lot of vulnerability in either of those two worlds.

Shasta Nelson: No.

Brad Johnson: And so, what I’ve found is it’s actually a superpower as a leader when you let people in. And I can think of a mentor I had years ago who was like on a pedestal. It’s like has it all together in business, life, almost like too perfect. So, it was lots of positive interactions, lots of consistency, but it’s almost like what are the guy’s flaws? And the moment he opened up and said, “Yeah, I was almost divorced because I was a workaholic,” like that drew me in. And so, I always go back to that, and I’m like if you can let people in and let you know you’re just a normal human like everybody else, that’s a superpower if you’ll allow it to happen.

Shasta Nelson: Yes, it is. It 100% is, 100% is, yeah. And it’s bonding. I mean, that’s when then we we’re talking about the science of bonding, if you want people to feel close to you, they will never feel close to you if they don’t feel like they know you. If they feel like you always have kind of a charade or like kind of this reputation that you’re going behind, like we so often goes back to the earlier point. We think we just need to be impressive. We’re making the huge mistake of just thinking we need to be so capable and prove to our team that we know what we’re doing. And people will never feel close to us if they don’t feel like we’re opening up a little bit. So, learning that is incredibly, very much a superpower. We can’t build healthy, meaningful relationships without it.

And I do want to clarify, you can be an over-talker and an under-sharer. So, we’re not talking about just who talks and monopolizes conversations. We’re talking about do both people feel seen in the appropriate way for that context. And so, at the very bottom of the triangle, vulnerability might mean, like you and I have just met. So, vulnerability means in this context, we can ask each other any question. Like, we’ve kind of have an implicit agreement that we’re having this conversation and we’re getting to know each other a little bit. But I might mention, yeah, I’ve been through a divorce or I might mention like last week, I just did a social media post on LinkedIn about how I felt, how I kind of caught myself comparing myself to other people at a speaking event. So, I can be vulnerable with you, but that’s different than as I move up the triangle. At the top of the triangle are people I’m processing that vulnerability with, right?

So, it’s not just disclosing information, it’s like what we expect and how we share. So, at the top of the triangle, those are the people that are like hearing the backstory and like in it with me, not just kind of getting the like, oh yeah, I was divorced, but like, oh my, they’re the ones that lived through the divorce with me. This is 25 years ago now. But yeah, I would just be like, as an example of like, and what’s vulnerable to one person will look a little bit different than vulnerability to somebody else. But a lot of women make the mistake of being too vulnerable too fast. They just think that if they’re just super vulnerable that that’s going to bond us. And it’s really important to recognize that healthy bonding is incremental.

We should only be learning a little bit more about each other every time we spend a little bit of time together. So, that triangle hopefully moves at a pretty similar pace, like as we log hours, so too, should we both be learning things about each other and then it needs to feel good and then we keep repeating it, but just vomiting our whole life story on somebody because we’re lonely or because we don’t have those relationships at the top of the triangle can stifle and hurt the relationship to the bottom of the triangle if we’re too vulnerable, too fast.

Brad Johnson: That makes a lot of sense. While we’re on vulnerability, let’s apply that to coaching. Let’s go over to the business side. I guess it could be parenting, it could be a lot of things, but I feel, one of the things I’ve seen over time, let’s say you’ve got a 25-year-old that just joins Triad, and I can say, here’s the way to do something, or I can say, let me tell you about a time where I messed this up and the lesson I learned, and I want to help you avoid that mistake so you don’t have to live through it yourself. That’s a form of vulnerability, which is like, I’m not perfect, I screwed this up. But it’s also a form of coaching to where it’s like, okay, cool. Now, it’s not like, oh, do it this way or else, it’s like, no, I actually did it the wrong way and let me tell you about that one. So, what are your thoughts around vulnerability and bringing that into the workplace?

Shasta Nelson: 100%. When I do consulting with an organization or a company, I have an assessment that gives in score in all three of these areas. So, I can have each employee or each team member take an assessment and they will give, basically, it’ll create a score of 76 in positivity, 83 inconsistency, 51 in vulnerability, or whatever. And then we can take the collective scores of all of that and we can basically judge and measure the health of a culture based upon, because culture is nothing but the group relationship. So, if we go into an office or a team, we can identify like, which of these three things would make the biggest difference?

So, we can look at this from a leadership perspective. We can look at like what you’re describing there, we need vulnerability in there and we need vulnerability in the workplace. And people get scared. That doesn’t just mean disclosing personal information, but what you’re doing is talking about process. You’re not processing that mistake with your client in real time. You have processed that and you are distilling it for a purposeful moment there in that experience. So, it is vulnerability, but it’s low-level vulnerability. You’re not tearing up as you’re telling this story. You’re not using this person to heal you, right?

So, high-level vulnerability would be like, we also want you having a friend that in real time, you are able to just be a mess and be unfiltered and process that thing. So, you’re being aware, you’re being conscious. The description you just described is you being very thoughtful. I’m doing this for a purpose. I’m not doing this to feed my own, like, you’re being aware of that. But we do need vulnerability in the workplace, 100%, and it’s the one that scares people the most. But interestingly enough, in all my data, it’s usually not the lowest in most companies. Like, the truth of the matter is we do have vulnerability in our workplaces. Like if we want to brainstorm, that takes vulnerability.

If you want somebody to take ownership of a problem and try to solve it, that’s incredible vulnerability because they might fail. It might be wrong. If you want somebody who admits that they don’t know how to do something, that’s vulnerability. If you’ve got somebody who wants to be creative and kind of like, all we do innovation and personal interactions, all of that takes vulnerability. And so, we have to train for this, we have to practice it. I treat all of these like muscles. And it might be scary for some people, it’s just a weak muscle in your body that you need to strengthen incrementally and safely. But you absolutely, our workplaces have to have vulnerability.

I will say what I need to clarify. If we’re talking about friendship, it needs to be mutual vulnerability. If we’re talking about there’s a lot of other meaningful relationships that are not mutual, coaching, you are vulnerable, but you’re very aware that this time is this other person and you will probably know more about them than they know about you. You’re probably not showing up and sharing all your life as much as they are, a pastor, congregation relationship, a hairdresser and a customer, counseling situations, teacher, doctors, healthcare. There’s a lot of roles where we’re showing up and we’re helping, we’re being a friend. We are helping somebody else be vulnerable. Financial advisors are doing this, somebody else is showing up, and you probably know more about them than you’re opening up and sharing about yourself.

So, what we want to pay attention to in those situations, there’s a couple takeaways. One is, yes, we still are vulnerable. You’re still authentic. To your point, you want a customer to bond with you. You’re still going to let them know a little bit about you. You are going to talk about your kids, you’re going to talk about your own financial failures. So, in an appropriate way, you are going to be vulnerable because they need to feel close to you. But we also need to be cognizant. This is not necessarily a friendship, and a lot of us make the mistake in those professions. We make the mistake of saying, I have a ton of friends, and it’s yes, you have a ton of people you’re friendly with, but that’s different than having developed a friendship.

And some of the loneliest industries are healthcare, sales, legal, advising, counseling, its positions where people are out there taking care of so many other people and they come home, and at the end of the day, nobody’s taking care of you. Like you know all the problems of somebody else, but nobody knows what your problems are. So, I really want to speak too to our own personal loneliness because over 60% of us are reporting loneliness on a regular basis in our jobs. And when we feel that kind of loneliness, we realize that the way we’re doing it is not working. It’s leaving us feeling.

So, it’s possible for us to come home and be peopled out and still lonely. I describe it as a difference between, we know you could eat potato chips all day and get enough calories, but that doesn’t mean you got enough nourishment. And so, yeah, your audience is such a great audience for just helping remind you that you can have incredible people skills. You can be so popular. You can know so many people. You can have so many relationships. But do you have the close friendships at the top of the triangle where you feel seen and known in a safe and supportive way?

Brad Johnson: I remember, you’re taking me back in time now. So, when I first got into financial services, 26 years old, was married, no kids. and my prospecting was 100 cold calls a day. So, I’m literally on the phone eight hours a day, getting hung up on a lot, but it’s almost like a verbal sparring match all day long. And I remember I would come home for dinner and my wife would be like, hey, how was your day? And she was wanting to talk and I’m like, battery was zero.

Shasta Nelson: Low, yeah.

Brad Johnson: But to your point, I had had nothing but social interaction all day. But it wasn’t meaningful. It was just a lot of reps. Do you see that with, I mean, there’s a lot of founders, a lot of entrepreneurs that can be a very lonely job when you’re leading a team. What are your thoughts around that? Like, if that’s somebody listening in, they’re having lots of interactions on a daily, but they’re kind of maybe shallow versus deep, what are your thoughts there?

Shasta Nelson: So, my TED Talk that you were referencing before the show started, so my first book was on how we make friends as adults basically. And it’s interesting because we’ve replaced half our close friends every seven years. So, we do have a repetition in our life where you need to keep making friends.

Brad Johnson: Really, every seven years, half our close friends.

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. So, you think about who you’re closest to right now, who you can fight in the most, who knows what’s going on in your day-to-day life. And chances are high that a couple of them are not the same people as seven years ago. So, chances are high that seven years from now, it’ll be slightly different. And that goes because we change jobs, we move, we have kids. They go to different schools. They’re playing different sports. We’re kind of moving in and out of different things.

The good news is in that same statistic is the relationships we do want lasting throughout our long life. We need to make sure that we create new patterns of consistency when one of those containers ends, right? So, our kids no longer play basketball on the same team, but it’s okay because we’re used to getting together as parents and getting together and going out for dinner on the weekends. So, even if they don’t play basketball, we still are seeing each other, but it’s like trying to make sure we’re protecting and building those patterns.

But my second book came out because I was really starting to see that most of us aren’t lonely because we need more interaction. We’re lonely because we need more intimacy. We’re lonely not to know more people, but to feel more known. We’re lonely, not because we need to go meet more people. Most of us have met plenty of people. We’re lonely because we need to feel more met. And so, to those people listening, that is loneliness. And I think that’s important for us to name because we so often think, oh, I can’t be lonely. Like that’s somebody who has no social skills and who is isolated. Most of us are lonely because we’re lacking relationships at the top of the triangle for most of us.

And so, what the number one thing we can do is get a Post-it note and ask yourself, like six months from now, who are like two to three to four people that I want to be closer to that I’m going to prioritize over the hundreds? And so, yes, I do have a job that might need to stay in touch with a whole bunch of people, but I am going to put a few people in a separate category and I’m going to purposely say, these are people I’m going to prioritize. I’m going to put them in a smaller rotation. I’m going to check in with them more often. I’m going to increase the consistency. I’m going to practice a little bit more vulnerability. I’m going to make sure I’m doing acts of positivity into their life. And we can strengthen those relationships and move them up, but we need to know them. So, yeah, a lot of you listening are so amazing at relationships. And we can be more intentional about our own relationships, not just business building.

Brad Johnson: Such good advice. All right, I’m going to switch gears here a bit. So, we focused a lot, I think, kind of internal. We’ve talked a little bit about business stuff, but I want to go to one of the things, as I was doing a little research here, how does this apply to what I would call the client experience? And I’m going to kind of set you up with the scenario and then I want to let you run. So, Shasta, you’re now a financial advisor. Congratulations.

Shasta Nelson: Yey, that’s a scary idea.

Brad Johnson: And you’ve just opened your new firm and you’ve got the background that you have, so you know the positivity, the consistency, the vulnerability creates connection. How would you start to infuse that into the client journey? And it could start at a public speaking event. Many advisors start that way at dinner seminar. They hope somebody books an appointment, comes into the office. Usually, it’s a two to three appointment process before they come on as a client. So, it could be the client journey through the office. Just paint me a little picture. What would be some things you would be thinking about there?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, I love that. So, I would be asking myself initially at that event, at that speaking event or that appreciation meal or whatever I’m doing, being like, how do I want people to feel when they interact with me, when they see me up front? And so, I would be very cognizant around what words I want people feeling and like what I’m purposely doing, and realize that I’m not getting hired just because I know my stuff, just because I’m good at money. I’m being hired because somebody feels safe with me, because they feel likable, because they don’t feel judged by me because they don’t feel intimidated by me.

And so, really being aware of like how I’m coming across in that way. And you all do it different ways, which is so beautiful, but just kind of thinking through, does that mean do I want to make extra little free gifts or do I want to do it and just make it beautiful and special? Or do I want to do it where I just have, I’m greeting them at the door and I’m welcoming them and I’m learning their name? But what are the ways that feel good to me that I could do to help build that beginning sense?

And then of course, you’re going to consistency. So, what’s my pattern? How do I help make this as easy as possible that I start kind of getting a relationship going with this person? And you would probably know way more of the cool strategies than I would, but just thinking through like, is my process as easy as possible for them to sign up for something? Is it as quick as possible that I can follow up with them? How much time can I actually get with them? What can I be doing with them? Is it something I can do right here, right now? Can I go to their house? Can we meet somewhere? But just thinking through, like what’s our pattern and how can I be in charge of making sure that that stays, that they feel supported and safe with my interactions?

Brad Johnson: Can I dive in there for a second? So, I’m just keeping this in front of me, vulnerability, consistency, positivity. So, I’m kind of hearing, the ease of doing business with me, which to me, I put that in the bucket of positive. Like, oh, this was really hard to set an appointment. I called them three times, never got a call back. That’s now a negative interaction. So, now, I put hurdles in place that slowed down the relationship side.

Shasta Nelson: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I’ve gone to so many websites where I try to schedule something and I can’t schedule it, right? And I just give up because I don’t want to make the phone call. So, I mean, like, if somebody can’t get that pattern going with me, that’s going to be– like, so just what you’re wanting to do and then you’re thinking vulnerability, okay, how do I interact with this person in a way that leaves them feeling safe enough to open up and share with me? And what can I say a little bit about me that will help them leave feeling closer to me? So, we’re being thoughtful about both of those directions there.

If they share everything and they know nothing about me, they’re going to feel the vulnerability hangover, like they’re going to feel like it’s off balance. And it will be a little off balance in this case, but I still need to be cognizant of like, how can I show up as authentically as possible and help them feel like they’re getting to know me, in that way. So, yeah, I mean, so you all have way better strategies and systems for all of that, but you can immediately start judging and evaluating your practice based on these three things. You could pretty quickly start being like, here’s what we do. Like, I know somebody, I know a financial advisor who was just like, we are sending Christmas trees to all of our top clients this year.

Brad Johnson: Christmas trees? Okay, let’s go.

Shasta Nelson: Yes. I know.

Brad Johnson: I’ve heard of like Christmas cookies. I mean, I’ve heard of like a turkey around Thanksgiving or pies. But a Christmas tree, that’s another level right there.

Shasta Nelson: No, I was talking at one conference with financial advisors and he’s like, his family owns a Christmas tree farm, and he’s like, I’m having a Christmas tree delivered to my top 50 clients. And like, what an act of positivity, right? Delight and wow and awe, what an act of consistency because they’re having an interaction that’s not necessarily financial related.

Brad Johnson: And a ritual, right? A ritual happens every Christmas.

Shasta Nelson: What an active vulnerability. Like this is my family’s Christmas tree. And so, all of us will have different resources and strengths at our hand, but you could pretty quickly draw a triangle and start brainstorming what you’re already doing that does these three things. Like every time I do this monthly dinner, that’s this one. Every time I reach out, that’s this one. Like, what am I doing that does these things? And you’ll see a weakness, you’ll see like, okay, I’m doing a lot of consistency, but not much vulnerability or like, okay, I’m like, haven’t been super intentional about positivity. And so, this is how we strengthen our business for sure, 100%.

Brad Johnson: Okay. Going back to that client journey. So, let’s just say they booked an appointment at the seminar. They’re coming in for the very first time, so the first impression is they walk into your office. I’m curious if we focus on the positive interaction piece of it, how much does food or drink play into that, where it’s like, hey, here’s– like, I had one office, for example. They had Retro Colas. They work with primarily pre-retirees and retirees. Do you all have Cracker Barrel where you’re at? Like, the old school.

Shasta Nelson: A few of them, yep.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, like Cracker Barrel has a wall of all these colas that you’ve never heard of because they were around in like 30s, 40s, 50s.

Shasta Nelson: Love it. So cool.

Brad Johnson: So, they had that menu where it was like, here’s the candy and here’s the sodas from when you were a child.

Shasta Nelson: That’s so good.

Brad Johnson: So, if we think about positivity, like nostalgia, I think, is really powerful, would that be a piece of how you should start to think through that? Or what box does that check from the science side?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, for sure. I mean, that’s immediately like how somebody feels when they walk in the door and how do you want them to feel and who are you serving? For me, if I walk into a financial advisor’s office and it’s very mahogany and heavy and fancy, I feel like, oh my gosh, I’m out of place, right?

Brad Johnson: Stuffy.

Shasta Nelson: Like, yes, it would feel intimidating to me, whereas if you’re serving people where that feels comfortable like you, don’t do it just for our own egos, like what we need to be doing is don’t decorate for how we want to be. How do we want people to feel when they walk in is the question. And food and drink are certainly a part of it because that is like gifts. So, gifts giving, acts of service, like a lot of those love languages fall under positivity. So, anytime we can kind of give something to somebody that feels extra, definitely does one of those boosts.

Brad Johnson: Very cool. And just going back to vulnerability, a financial advisor’s office can be stuffy, it can be uncomfortable. It’s like a doctor’s office. It’s like sterile. It’s like, ugh, kind of gives you like the weird feeling. So, like, I’ve seen firms that have like, hey, when you come in the first time, it’s like having a cup of coffee together. So, like, their office setup is more like a living room to where they’re just having a cup of coffee and it’s a conversation versus what feels like, oh, I’m sharing all my deepest, darkest financial secrets with you. So, sounds like a big piece of some things that advisors should be thinking about. Not just the words they say or how they show up human to human, but what is the environment that they’re inviting people into?

Shasta Nelson: Yep. And what’s the first, and if you run a little secret, like code, a secret cheat sheet, it’s the first moment and the last moment that will be the most significant when we think about positive interactions. Like, I mean all of it matters, but how you first show up and walk up to me, the warmth I feel from you will do lodge itself in my body more than anything else you say. And that last sentence, like, I always say this with my friends, like, don’t walk away from that lunch without saying thank you so much for making the time to spend this with me. I loved being with you today. Like, I can’t wait for our next one. The more we can say positive things at the end, the less likely it is that they walk away being like, oh, did I overtalk? And maybe, that person didn’t really like me.

And all of us have insecurities, we’re going to walk away and feel our things. The number one thing we can do is help people know that we loved interacting with them, like lodge that in. So, our final words when somebody’s leaving, like, thank you so much for being here. I really am excited about your finances. I know it’s been stressful for you, but I feel really hopeful about what we’re going to do. Okay, like that matters, expressing that verbal appreciation, the verbal gratitude, the verbal hope, like using our words matters so much in our final sentences.

Brad Johnson: So, if you were to train, you’re still a financial advisor, by the way. If you bring on a new financial advisor on the team and you focus just on primacy and recency, first thing, last thing, right, and you were just sheerly teaching a brand-new advisor, here’s how you should properly greet someone so they have a super positive interaction, here’s how you should properly say goodbye. I feel like you just kind of hit that. But the verbals and the nonverbals, what certain things would you say, check these boxes if possible?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. I mean, so when we walk in, like, so some of the science shows that if we look at their left eye, it actually communicates more warmth.

Brad Johnson: Left eye?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. So, looking at their left eye captures a different part of the brain. So, being able to walk in, like, make that eye contact, put that handout, be the first one, or like, if you’re the type of person that’s kind of just like, I don’t know, I’m a hugger. Are you a hugger?

Brad Johnson: Okay, so that’s my question.

Shasta Nelson: But what are we doing that opens ourselves up?

Brad Johnson: Handshake or hug? Handshake, and then permission for hug would be your…

Shasta Nelson: Yeah, that would probably be the right way to do it. Yep. And always, always asking permission ahead of time. Some of us are people who will thrive under the touch. Most of us are touch starved. Most of us need more healthy platonic touch in our life, so I’m a big fan of that, but there’s also a lot of people who are very uncomfortable with it. But yeah, so kind of finding that dance, but definitely put our hand out. We want to communicate warmth and so we want to be the one that kind of steps forward. Confidence is like how we show up, kind of going first going forward, putting that hand out, just saying so, so glad you’re here. Like, what’s one thing that you can affirm sincerely? Like, what’s something you can compliment? You’re just wanting to say something that helps say to that person, I see you and I’m here and I’m glad you’re here.

So, anything you can do that kind of just says, welcome, so, so glad you’re here. I’ve been looking forward to this. And then of course, can I get you a glass of water? Can I get you a cup of coffee, a stronger drink? Like, I mean, depending on the environment, but absolutely, we’re just wanting to help. Like immediately, what somebody’s wanting when they walk in is they want to feel safe, they want to feel relaxed as quickly as possible, and they want to feel accepted. So, we’re wanting somebody, so again, we don’t need to be impressive off the bat. We need to help them feel safe and comfortable as quickly as possible. So, whatever that means, letting them know where the bathroom is, making sure they have seating that’s comfortable, and making sure they remember my name. One of the big things I say to people is just pronounce your name over and over and over for people. Assume, like don’t let them, don’t leave them feeling like they don’t know how to say your name because that will leave them not feeling close to you, even if they are and they will. So, just kind of making sure that some of those basic things are covered is so significant.

Brad Johnson: Okay, so now, I’m going to take that and now, let’s say we’re doing, try and does this, so this is a selfish question. Let’s say we’re doing a conference, we call them experiences versus events. but we’re doing an experience, we want it to be memorable. and let’s say there’s 300 people in the room, but there’s 50 that this is their very first Triad experience. So, they’re kind of like the new kid in class. And just like you said, nobody feels good being the new kid in class, the outsider. What would be some intentional things? I mean, other than going around and personally introducing yourself to 50 people, would there be a way you would create an environment in that experience so that nobody feels like the new kid in class?

Shasta Nelson: Yeah. Or I mean, there’s so many options here. Let me ask you this question. Let me ask you, how do you want those 50 new people to feel?

Brad Johnson: Welcome, safe, I’m in the right place. These are my people. It’s almost like, I just try to put myself in their shoes. Like, I’ve been at those conferences where I look around the room, I’m like, I know nobody here. Like, nobody. I don’t think any human enjoys that or they’re very– it’s a very small percentage if they do. Just not feeling like the new kid in class, like I want them to feel like, hey, come on in. Hey, you’re in the right place. So, maybe it’s an ambassador that’s been in there, like, I don’t know what that would look like, but…

Shasta Nelson: There’s so many ways we could brainstorm this, but you’re going down the right path. So, like, if it were me, so I open a lot of conferences. I love opening the conference because I can set a tone right off the bat of like, we are all here for the relationships purpose and all of us, including myself, walking in the door here was like, I hope I’m good enough. I hope people like me. I hope I’m dressed okay. I hope I fit in. And all of us are going to have our insecurities, even the people who’ve been here once or twice before are going to look at the people who have been here five years and feel like I’m not in the inner circle, right?

One of the amazing things, C.S. Lewis has this great quote that just says, we’re humans and we always can see the next circle that we’re not in. He frames it really beautifully, where it’s like we’re just always like, we can be in, we can even be a part of the community, and yet still feel left out when we see another interaction. We always have this feeling, like there’s another circle that we’re not quite in. And I think I have so much compassion for myself on that. When I feel that and reminding ourselves like, that’s part of our tenet, that proves how much we want to be connected.

So, being able to help set that tone from the front, when there’s 50 new people, I actually am a fan of just kind of like saying out loud, we are so excited about the new people in the room. So, I’m a little bit like, I’m not trying to not make them feel new. I actually just want them to feel so welcome. So, it’d be like, we are so excited. We love having new people here and our hope is that we just envelop you and that you are part of us in no time at all. But can we have the new people stand? And we want to clap, like we want to welcome you. And so, like actually, be intentional about celebrating them. Have their names run all across the screens up top. Have them stand up. Have everyone clap and say, now everyone else, I am counting on you.

Look at the people at your table who are the new people. I am counting on you to, like, especially for our first day here, especially for the morning, let’s not gravitate to the people we already know because that’s easy to do and that will be all of our tendency. Let’s make sure that we do everything we can to gravitate to the new people and get to know them and help them see what an amazing community we are. So, you’re training your entire group. Like I lead these travel circles and it used to be 16 strangers going to another country together. And it was easier when it was 16 people that I had to bond together. Over time, I had so many repeat people that pretty soon, I started realizing I had this really weird dynamic where I had like only four or five new people and they felt left out immediately, and I had to say to the repeat people, your job is not to gravitate to each other for the first couple days of this trip. Like, our job as like building friendships is like sit next to the new people and do everything we can to get to know them.

And then I understand we are going to want to see our old friends, but kind of helping create a DNA, that this is the way we do community here. We value those new people. It immediately lets people know like, I’m seen, I’m wanted here. Like, it’s going to take time to connect. And that’s where we can just set a vision too. We can say, I promise you, the more you come, the closer you’re going to feel to all of us. You can be one of those people hugging people and feeling all connected if you come back the next time.

Brad Johnson: Consistency.

Shasta Nelson: Like, we want that for you and it just takes time. Exactly, exactly.

Brad Johnson: See, I’m learning things here. I’m listening.

Shasta Nelson: You got it. What’s true for most of you, financial advisors, especially, is a lot of this comes intuitively to you. Like, you guys are really good at building relationships and having social skills, so you’re doing a lot of this. It’s just fun to sometimes now have the science, the language behind what you’re doing.

Brad Johnson: Well, Shasta, this time has flown. This has been awesome.

Shasta Nelson: It’s been fun.

Brad Johnson: Thank you so much. I have one final question and I know you’ve got something right on the other side of this. This is the Do Business, Do Life podcast. What’s been really cool, it’s how to do this on both sides of the equation, and we’ve talked all about it. But I would love to hear your definition, kind of we say here at Triad, we want to help our members build businesses that bless their lives, don’t become their lives. We want that integration, not the tug of war. I’m curious, I would love to hear your definition of what that looks like to you.

Shasta Nelson: Well, years and years ago, I wrote down definition of success and it’s got five things in it. It’s got my health, it’s got my relationships, it’s got my lifestyle, which I define by having time to do certain things, spaciousness, sitting on my deck with my husband, traveling, and then it’s got impact and it’s got finances. And so, for me, it’s really clear. Like I’m not succeeding unless I’m feeling really good in all five of those. And so, when I think about Do Business, Do Life, like if I were just making really good money, but I wasn’t doing the others, that would not feel fulfilling to me.

Or there’s times where I was like, early in my career I had tons of impact. Like, if doing blogs could go buy bread at the grocery store, I would’ve been fine. But I wasn’t making good financial income, right? So, like for me, it was just like, how do I find the balance between these things? So, for me, it’s really being intentional that, for me, this is my definition of success. So, it helps kind of hold it up for me that I don’t get caught up in chasing any one of them at the expense of the others.

Brad Johnson: Love that. Well said. And very, obviously, well thought out. So, well, I appreciate it. So nice to meet you virtually. Hope someday our paths cross in person, but this has been absolutely amazing. So, thanks for coming on.

Shasta Nelson: Thank you. And thank you for the amazing work you’re doing, for this podcast success, for all the people you’re inspiring. Really impressed and really happy to meet you.

Brad Johnson: Appreciate it. Till next time.

Shasta Nelson: All right.