Why Most Financial Advisor Firms Can’t Escape the Chaos

Brad Johnson: Welcome back to another episode of Do Business. Do Life. Sabrina, this is fun. We get to do this one in person. We’re hanging out at Scale Summit in Dallas.

Sabrina Brown: It’s beautiful. We have a great view.

Brad Johnson: And so, now we get to dive in about the wild ride you’ve had in finance from the early days at Reliance with Tyler and Dana to the evolution today. So, why don’t we just go all the way back?

Sabrina Brown: Okay.

Brad Johnson: How did you get into finance? Was this like friends? Like, how did this come to be in the early days?

Sabrina Brown: So, that is a funny story. And Tyler always likes to joke about this now. Do you remember when Craigslist was like the place to go for jobs? Was that a thing for you?

Brad Johnson: I remember it. Well, I mean, I never put a resume out there, but I was on Craigslist a bit.

Sabrina Brown: So, it was my first year of college. I had moved out of my house. I worked at Macy’s as like a cosmetics representative, and I needed a second job. So, I posted, or Tyler posted a job ad on Craigslist for cold callers. So, my role was to call other advisors and recruit them to this advisory firm that he worked with. And so, I got hired on as a cold caller. Tyler likes to say he bought me on Craigslist. So, of course, Tyler.

Brad Johnson: A random Tyler joke.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. So, I actually first started with Tyler working for him, as the cold caller, and then he was moving to Louisiana with his family, and he knew that Dana needed an assistant, so he recommended me to Dana, and that’s how I started with Dana. I was his first employee, aside from his wife. She was having her first baby and wanting to kind of be more home with the baby. So, yeah, that’s how I started.

Brad Johnson: About what year was this?

Sabrina Brown: 2012.

Brad Johnson: 2012. Okay. And if I go back and for those just tuning in to this, I’ve done previous episodes with Dana and Tyler, and then Dana solo. So, you can kind of get the founder side. Today, we’re getting the real side, right? The operations.

Sabrina Brown: Well, yes.

Brad Johnson: Part of it anyway. So, was this right as Dana was leaving to start his own firm?

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Like, he was just getting this thing off the ground.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: And Tyler wasn’t even a part of the firm yet, because he was going on a road trip or something, sounds like.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, let’s talk about the chaos of just as you look at the firm and just like as I look back, very common for the industry that I grew up in, very insurance focused, a lot of annuities for retirees. That was kind of the world he came from, hadn’t even evolved to where you are all are today with 65 full holistic planning. So, what did that look like when it was like founder, salesperson, everything else Sabrina?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Brad Johnson: Because I know there’s a lot of people listening in on the Op side. They’re like, “That’s me.” They’re living that right now.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, for sure. It was very chaotic. It was a lot of toggling between new business and client service and answering the phone and planning the seminar and going to the seminar. I think there was one year that Dana and I did like over 90 nights during the year for seminars. So, Dana has one speed, and it’s very fast, and that was my life. So, I learned to adapt very well, and Dana just trusted me with anything and everything over time. I just learned how to, there’s beauty in managing up, and that was kind of the role that I played a lot of the time was just letting him know what was going on, taking care of everything, and just making the whole ship sail.

Brad Johnson: What advice would you give to somebody that may be listening in right now that’s in that season where it’s like founder, salesperson, everything else, managing the chaos, running at 11 on a treadmill? Like, how do you get through it?

Sabrina Brown: I think a lot of people, and myself included, we get overwhelmed by everything that we have to do every day. And if we just take a step back and we look at, okay, how do I prioritize, what top three things am I focusing on right now, and take the rest kind of out of your mind as much as you can? All of it is important, but there’s the mental load of having everything in your brain all at once is just too chaotic for people. And so, I really learned how to prioritize and write out my tasks or note them on your computer, whatever works for you, but make a list and then make sure that you’re working on the top three most important things, and then you move on to the rest.

People tend to be very overwhelmed by everything, and so if you take a step back and you just have a few things on your list, you can breathe, and you can focus on them. And you can’t do everything all at once. It just doesn’t work. You will burn out. You won’t do them effectively. So, it sounds very simple, but it’s prioritizing. And if you really want to know from your founder, kind of what to prioritize, just ask them. Say, “Hey, I have a bunch on my plate. I need to take some things and put them on tomorrow’s list. What would you like me to focus on today?” And over time, you’ll learn kind of what your founder expects what is important to them, how they like things done. And so, all of that kind of rolls into one.

Brad Johnson: How do you nicely say, trust me, I’ve had this with my team as well. Founders typically have big visions, big energy, to your point. So, you’ve got your three things on the list. And then all of a sudden, the next morning there’s a new one that’s all of a sudden at top priority, which maybe it’s a great idea or maybe it’s just an idea of the day.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: How do you navigate a conversation like that with a founder? Is it to like maybe nicely say, “Hmm, are you sure? Is now the right time? Is that the top priority? I’ve got all these other things. How do you manage that?

Sabrina Brown: Yes. I don’t know if I can nicely say anything. I’m an Enneagram 8, so that’s harder for me, but I’ve had to get better at that. So, I’m an Enneagram 8, so communication for me is not as difficult as some people. I’ve learned how to let Dana, or let Tyler know, “Hey, I have X, Y, and Z going on. Where would you like me to prioritize this? What does that look like? What is the deadline? What are you expecting from it?” I’ve also learned how to communicate in a way that I get more clarity because a lot of times my founders are 7s, Enneagram 7, so they like to have fun. They have so many ideas.

If I’m not sure about what they are telling me or what they’re wanting, I use the Brené Brown line like, “Paint me a picture of what that looks like for you,” because in my head, I might have one idea of what they’re saying, but in their heads, they have a completely different idea. And so, it’s also getting clarity on what exactly is needed, and why this is important. And then going from there and prioritizing.

Brad Johnson: I love that. Such a good phrase, “Paint me a picture.” I’ve heard it said like, “Show your work.” Because it happens so often in business, well, just in life in general, where your idea of what they’re thinking versus their idea, they’re two different realities.

Sabrina Brown: Just completely different.

Brad Johnson: So, just unpacking that, but help me understand, okay, now let’s shuffle. And does that take a higher priority than what I already had going?

Sabrina Brown: Yes. And it might not be founders have great ideas, and they’ll throw them all at you, and you might feel overwhelmed by something that to them in their minds isn’t even as big as you’re kind of making it feel in your brain. So, it’s like, “Tell me more about this. What do you expect? Paint me the picture.”

Brad Johnson: Love that. Okay. So, let’s fast forward. 2012, you get in, kind of jump into chaos. Very common. Let’s kind of go through the build. So, do you remember about the amount of assets brought in that first year, 2012-2013, when it was just you and Dana?

Sabrina Brown: It was probably like 12 million, something like that.

Brad Johnson: Which that’s still a big number for two people.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Brad Johnson: So, there’s a lot going on. How many nights were you doing? Was that the 90 nights or was that…?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, 90 nights may have been like more around 15 million. We started to get up there, like 15 to 20 million was kind of our sweet spot for a few years. That’s where we were.

Brad Johnson: And so, let’s kind of start at that inflection point. You’re at 20 mil. How had the team changed? Was it still just you and Dana, or do you expand it a bit?

Sabrina Brown: There was, I think, two other people on the team at that point. The first hire we hired was front desk/receptionist. So, we hired someone to answer the phones. That way I could focus on other things because the phone rings constantly, you get sidetracked, things come up. So, we hired a front desk person, and then we hired an event planner for our seminars. And so, that’s how we kind of broke it up. I was more ops, new business, service, and then we had front desk and events.

Brad Johnson: So, you’d started kind of the formation of financial advisor running around like crazy to like the very beginnings of business structure. How we break it down at Triad is marketing before, create the leads, sales during, ops fulfill the promises after. So, you had now a marketing coordinator, so kind of somebody on the front a little bit to help. Dana’s literally full sales. He’s the only person there still. You’re ops, and then you look at reception that kind of across all of that. So, okay, let’s keep going.

Sabrina Brown: Okay.

Brad Johnson: So, when was the next jump from like 20 to like the next big number?

Sabrina Brown: I think it was probably 20 to around 30, 35 million was the next big jump. And at that point, we had divided service from new business. And that was kind of how we managed the workload there.

Brad Johnson: And at the time, you were both. So, what came off your plate?

Sabrina Brown: Service.

Brad Johnson: Service.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. I was the new businessperson for over a decade.

Brad Johnson: Back when we didn’t have FireLight and eApps. You were…?

Sabrina Brown: Oh, yes. Oh my gosh. Don’t even remind me.

Brad Johnson: Do you ever have nightmares?

Sabrina Brown: Yes. Of the paper apps? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I can’t even believe. Yeah, it was insane.

Brad Johnson: So, service, was it essentially, “Hey, this is now a client,” and they call a receptionist, direct-to-service person. They were kind of the front lines there.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. But they just handled kind of beneficiary changes, withdrawals, very basic requests. But anything else went to the advisor.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, this is would you say about 2015?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, I would say 2015, 2016.

Brad Johnson: And we’re at about 30, 35 million, started to build out the team. What started to break? Like, where did the ceilings start to hit?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. We just could not put more appointments on Dana and Ty. At this point, Tyler was in the mix.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, two salespeople now.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. So, two salespeople. We just could not put more appointments on their calendar. That took away from bringing in revenue, if they had an allocation need or they had an anniversary coming up, things like that. We were back to back to back with appointments all day long.

Brad Johnson: And so, they’re doing all the new client sales and all the reviews and stuff.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, policy deliveries, everything.

Brad Johnson: So, kind of the analogy I make is if you’re running a fast food shop like McDonald’s back in the day. Remember when you actually got the free refills at the counter, not at the little side machine? So, every other one was like a free refill that just like coming back, but it’s not new business.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, exactly.

Brad Johnson: So, now you’re really getting bogged down, and it’s hurting the growth. How did you start to fix that?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. So, I think honestly, for a while we lived in that. It was a handful of years that we lived in that chaos, and that’s when Dana started to feel burnt out. Tyler started to take on more service appointments, less first appointments. So, they tried to divide.

Brad Johnson: So, you almost like divided between the two? Dana’s the new business guy. Tyler’s the existing client. Okay.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. So, we tried that for a while, but we still had an influx of first appointments, new appointments that needed to go somewhere. So, Tyler would take on some, but then he was pulled into service appointments. At some point, I started to take on appointments for like deliveries.

Brad Johnson: Oh, you were taking appointments now?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Brad Johnson: Okay. Welcome to…

Sabrina Brown: Dana was like, “Hey, take this appointment.” And he kind of just threw me in there, and I learned. I had experience, and I was licensed and everything. So. I knew the products that we were selling and what they entailed, and allocations and all of that for the annuities, but it was still taking me away from my role.

Brad Johnson: Running the business.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. And so, we just kind of juggled all of that chaos for, I would say, quite a few years, probably four years or so that we were in that.

Brad Johnson: So, what if you give me a snapshot of years just for those listening or watching?

Sabrina Brown: Probably 2015 to 2019, 2020.

Brad Johnson: So, then we have a nice little COVID situation.

Sabrina Brown: Yep.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, a couple of things there. First off, in Dana’s episode, I remember him saying like, what I loved is he got pretty real and raw, and he’s like, “I would get so burned out, I would escape to my lake house with the family. And just don’t call me.”

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. He would just disappear.

Brad Johnson: But problems weren’t fixed. He was just running from them.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: And then they were all there waiting for him when he came back. And what’s interesting, I see this over and over, where a founder will be like, it’s almost like whack-a-mole, and they’re like, “Hey, nobody sees this appointment. Sabrina, how about you?” So, that’s not your role. You weren’t hired for that. We now voided another area of the business that needed you to just put out the fire of the day. And I just see that happen a lot where it’s like you’re wearing like two, three hats. And every time you try to take one off, oh, you get pulled back in. So, how did you guys start to break out of that? Because that’s a painful spot to be in.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, it had to be 2020. I was also getting burnt out, right? Dana would escape to the lake house, and he needed to do that because if not, he was going to explode. And so, never fault him for that. But then I would be at the office trying to clean up, and I would try not to bother him because I knew how burnt out he was. So, I think that’s what built a lot of trust as well. I mean, you take challenges, and you learn from them, and you just do the best that you can with what you have. And so, it’s like I really had to step up and take the place of Dana sometimes in moments. Not sales. But everything else.

And so, it was 2020. I expressed to him that, “Hey, I’m running on fumes now at this point. I’m tired. I don’t go home and enjoy my life anymore during the week. It’s a lot.” And so, at that point, we really had to take a look at how our business was structured and assess where do we want to go from here. Because we don’t want to keep doing this. It’s not working anymore. So, what do we do next? And we ended up hiring, I’m trying to think, we ended up hiring. At that point, we had service new business, and I was new business, but also like Director of Ops. And then we had the event planner front desk. We still had Dana and Tyler. So, we had six people total.

Brad Johnson: Six, and you’re doing 35 million of new assets-ish.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, 35-ish. So, we just really started to assess kind of where we wanted to go, what we wanted that to look like. But we spent longer than we needed in that chaos, I think, because you’re scared of kind of branching out and doing something different. You don’t know how it’s going to go. The founder has the pressure of payroll and all of that. So, we probably stayed in that chaos, really, until we joined Triad. I mean, that was the pivotal moment for us where it was like, “Oh, hey, there is a different way to do it that works, that people have success with. And we can actually go enjoy our lives and have a great business and have fun and do all the things that we want to do.”

So, Triad really taught us that there was a different way. We were just kind of living in the chaos. And so, I think that was the pivotal moment.

Brad Johnson: If you could go back and give yourself, or maybe Dana or Tyler advice back, call it right in the middle of that, what would you say?

Sabrina Brown: I would say not to be afraid to change what you’re doing if it’s not working. And we learned a phrase from you guys. It’s a two-way door decision. Like, if we make a decision that doesn’t work, we can go back out the door. We don’t have to stick with the decision, but let’s do something to help ourselves. And so, I think we’ve been very fast implementers since joining Triad. But we weren’t necessarily that way before, just because we were running a million miles an hour trying to put out fires everywhere. We didn’t even have time to think about it. And so, when we joined Triad, it was like we had the meeting, the first meeting, where you guys flew us out to your office, and we actually had time to breathe and had time to assess. And so, I think just not being afraid to make decisions is the big one.

Brad Johnson: Like, work on the business versus just be in the business all the time.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. Take a moment. Like, I know it feels chaotic, and it feels like you can’t even breathe, but take the time. Take an hour, take two hours, take a whole day if you need to, and really assess where you’re at.

Brad Johnson: Good advice. And it’s tough. It’s tough because you’re in it. I can very much relate and have empathy for any founder that’s doing that balance between growth and cash flow and not getting out over your skis, and all of that dance.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, let’s go to, so COVID happens. I know that’s a weird year for everybody that was doing public events, which you guys were doing a lot. Was 2020 a down year? It was for a lot that just were driven by public events.

Sabrina Brown: It was, but surprisingly, it was a down year, but it wasn’t as down as we thought or expected it to be. That’s when we really tried to uncover assets within our current book of business. And so, we quickly realized, “Oh, hey, there’s more here. We’ve been focusing on annuity, annuity, annuity.” But we’re not gathering all the other assets that come with it. And so, of course, we weren’t in the wealth management space yet. But that’s kind of when we started to think about that.

Brad Johnson: Got it. 2020 was kind of the light bulb moment for you.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, for sure. Yeah. So, a lot of our revenue that year came from our existing book of business. Whether it was another annuity or life insurance or something like that, we had to fix the problem. We couldn’t have public events. So, yeah.

Brad Johnson: That year was interesting when you look back. I mean, we’re like right at six years now ago that kind of broke loose. I was in actually Dallas, Texas.

Sabrina Brown: Oh, really?

Brad Johnson: I remember watching SportsCenter. Yeah. I was there at a training with a bunch of advisors, and they canceled the NBA season. I was like, “Oh, this just got real. This is happening.” So, kind of threw everybody’s world upside down. But what I remember about that year, you got back to the basics. You know, it was like, let’s go back, let’s reconnect with clients. Let’s see how we can serve them. So, there’s a lot of learnings that came out of that year.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Brad Johnson: You all have embraced annuities, life insurance, now wealth management. So, at what point did Dana go get a 65, or how did that start to be?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. So, we decided we wanted to go get our 65. And so, I love learning. I wasn’t ever going to be an advisor. That wasn’t what I was really great at or excelled at, but I always wanted to have the licenses and do all the things with the guys. So, the three of us decided that we were going to get licensed.

Brad Johnson: You knocked your 65 out?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Brad Johnson: Right with them? I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that part of the story.

Sabrina Brown: I mean, Dana probably wouldn’t want me to say this on the podcast, but I was the first one to pass.

Brad Johnson: That surprises me zero, by the way. So, you led the charge like, “Hey, guys, not that tough. Come on, let’s go knock this thing out.” So, what year did that go down?

Sabrina Brown: I’m trying to think. That was 2021, I believe. Yeah. 2021. So, all three of us were studying together, and Dana and I took our test on the same day, actually.

Brad Johnson: And you passed. And did he?

Sabrina Brown: No.

Brad Johnson: Wait, we got to…

Sabrina Brown: Hey, there’s a lot of people that have not passed on their first try.

Brad Johnson: No, no. Most don’t.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. Most really don’t. But sorry, Dana. I just had to ask that.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, sorry, Dana. But yes, so eventually we all passed that year, and that’s really when we started to explore the wealth space to see kind of what was out there, who we wanted to connect with. And then we really didn’t advertise it. We just kind of started uncovering assets within our existing book, and that was kind of how we got our feet wet with it.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, 2021, expand the services for your existing clients?

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: And where, like, are you still at about the six people mark?

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Okay. And then let’s fast forward. What’s the next inflection point?

Sabrina Brown: So, fast forward, we quickly realized, okay, well, we’ve realized it for a while now that we need a service advisor or somebody on the team that can help with appointments. And so, I think that was really the next inflection point that came. It was after we joined Triad. We really took time to sit down and go through ops, marketing, sales. What are the biggest holes that we need to fill? And that was number one.

Brad Johnson: So, did you all have an org chart at that point before you got to this?

Sabrina Brown: Oh, no.

Brad Johnson: So, basically, joining Triad was the first kind of real org chart where you could say, “Oh, I’m actually wearing three hats. Oops.”

Sabrina Brown: Yes. You guys taught us so much. It was, yeah, that was the real pivotal point was breaking down, “Okay. What is my role going to be? What is Dana’s role going to be?”

Brad Johnson: Did you all have job descriptions?

Sabrina Brown: We did.

Brad Johnson: Okay. Well, that’s good. A lot don’t, so.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, we did have job descriptions. I had created job descriptions, but they were pretty basic. But yeah, we really refined what I know you guys went through like drudgeries and then what we really love. So, we really started to define, hey, this is what I want to focus on. We’re always going to have things that come with our jobs that we don’t enjoy doing. That’s why it’s work. But this is what brings me fulfillment, this is what brings me purpose, and this is what I want to do.

Brad Johnson: So, when you all came in, whole team of six came in on that. I wasn’t involved in that meeting, so I’m…

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Okay. And so, you kind of lay out, here’s what I love, here’s what brings me joy, and also, what I’m good at, right? Because those have to overlap. And were there any big ahas? I mean, we’ve had tears in those meetings. We’ve had people that are in a role for five years and they’re like, I actually hate this role. And it’s the first time it’s come out. Like what? Any big light bulb moments there?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, I think I remember, so Cynthia, she’s one of our longest employees or team members so far. And she was the event planner. She started at front desk, then she moved to event planning. And I believe it was at that point during that meeting that Cynthia was like, I have a fear of failing and not living up to the expectation, talking with people. And so, it wasn’t necessarily like, I hate my role. It was more those conversations that we just didn’t know how to have, and getting down to, okay, I had no idea that you felt that way. Let’s problem solve this. Let’s figure it out because I think that you’re great at what you’re doing.

And so, it was really just getting real and authentic. And that was really the start of, I think, my leadership journey because I had never really had experience leading. I mean, this was my first real job during college that just kind of snowballed. But I just had to learn on the fly and learn from Dana and Tyler and they were great, but they’re also not great at managing because that’s not what they excel at. That’s not what they enjoy doing. And so, I really had to step up and learn, okay, I find fulfillment in my people, my team.

And so, that was when I was like, I’m all in. I’m all in on leading them. I learned very quickly from Michelle Short and you guys. Like my team is my client. That is where I find purpose. And so, it was really just diving into what we wanted to do and what we found purpose in.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, you know, what’s interesting? I just had a little flashback because it was our first office before we expanded into our new office space. And we were in the little side conference room because it was you, Dana, and Tyler. And I just popped in and said, “What’s up?” Like after you’d had that meeting. And I remember, like, I saw an energy there where it’s kind of like, ah, we see the path now. Now, it’s time to go get it.

Sabrina Brown: It all clicked together at that point. Yeah.

Brad Johnson: So, you come out of this. What were the first big changes as you started to truly build a structure, truly have job descriptions, truly start to have alignment with the right people in the right seats? Give me like that next six months to a year. What were the first big changes that you all made?

Sabrina Brown: We hired. We probably hired. We were so ready, we were so pumped from that meeting that we hired people and I think that was one of the challenges and learning experiences that we had in the beginning was hiring the right people, right? Like we went out and hired probably two to three people and they were supposed to be the service team, service advisors, and it just wasn’t the right fit. And it wasn’t them, it wasn’t that they were terrible people or that they didn’t know what they were doing. They just weren’t the right culture fit.

And so, I think from that point, we learned we really have to define what our culture is and what we expect of people and who those people are. And that was a learning experience. Hiring people is one of the most difficult things that I’ve done and had to learn from because you’re affecting other people’s lives as well. And so, it’s really taking that serious and taking the time to learn who to hire, how to hire, kind of what that process is and diving into that because it’s a huge part of your business.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. It’s what I hear you saying, it’s like a, it’s a responsibility. And you’ve got to take it seriously. By the way, guilty as well at Triad on like, just not having it dialed in in the early days. So, going back to, hey, we maybe pushed the gas pedal down too fast or didn’t have the process as dialed in, what were the adjustments that you made to course correct, to culture filter, any things you did there?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, I think we really defined kind of the values, the professional values that we wanted to see in people and what would fit with our office, like extreme accountability, taking ownership, having a lifelong learner mentality on the team. Those are the people that we want to hire. And so, it’s defining that and then tweaking your interview towards those kind of values, the questions that you ask, because technical skills, you can find those in any one. It’s the soft skills that are more of a focus for me now when I hire. It’s, hey, do they know how to communicate clearly? Are they afraid to communicate? Do they know how to delegate? Do they take accountability? All of these things that you can kind of filter out during the interview process. And so, that’s really the first tweak that we made was defining that.

And then it was, okay, how do we set them up for success? How do we communicate clearly with them what our expectations are in the first 30 days, the first 60 days? Really laying out the track for them because we have expectations in our mind all the time, but it’s, again, going back to paint me a picture. What does that actually look like to me? Because I can tell you, hey, I really want you to go in there and lead the team and make a difference with this department. And to them, that means something completely different than it does to me. So, really laying out lists of here’s a bullet point sheet of what I mean by that, here’s the metrics of success. And so, that was the kind of second part of that.

Brad Johnson: I want to circle back. You said something I think is really key that we learned the hard way as well. I think early on, a lot of advisors, what I’ve seen is it’s like they’re trying to hire the technical skills. It’s, they’ve got a 65, they’ve been an advisor for five years. I won’t have to train them. They know the products. But they completely under-index on the culture fit side.

And to steal from Jefferson Fisher, it’s like kind of what’s your mama taught you? Like treat others as you want to be treated. Do you take accountable accountability when somebody drops the ball? I’ve found it almost impossible to change somebody that’s 20, 25, 30, 35, if that core kind of competencies aren’t there, right?

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Is that part of what you started to learn?

Sabrina Brown: Yes, definitely. Soft skills are so much harder to teach, right? I do think that they’re teachable and they’re learnable and you can get better at them, but if you’re not willing to do that or you don’t understand that they are something that’s learnable and teachable, if you’re not coachable on soft skills, it’s just not going to work.

Brad Johnson: It’s hard if somebody makes excuses over and over, and then like, don’t do that anymore. They’ve been doing it for 25 years, 30 years. It’s like, it’s really hard to break those old habits. Not as hard to say, hey, why don’t you watch four hours of e-money videos to learn how e-money works?

Sabrina Brown: Yes, exactly.

Brad Johnson: That’s a technical skill. It’s trainable.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, definitely. Yeah, those are so much easier to train.

Brad Johnson: Are there culture filters that you started to work in? Were there certain questions that you like to kind of…

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, I have a whole list of questions. Let me see. So, one that I really like, I think I stole it from Simon Sinek. It was, if we’re interviewing, I would ask, so I don’t like surprises. Can you tell me about something that might go wrong in the first 30 days of you working with us? And so, I really like that question because I can really see if someone takes accountability or if they’re– I had one interviewee say, I don’t clock out on time. I’m a hard worker. I don’t clock out on time. And I was like, that’s not someone that’s going to take accountability for. And so, it’s filtering with those types of questions. I really love– I’m a lifelong learner, so I love Simon Sinek. I think he’s brilliant. I learn a lot from him. Jefferson Fisher is amazing, Brene Brown. So, I kind of, I learn from these individuals that have so much more experience in the leadership space. And so, you can really take advantage of that.

Brad Johnson: Love it. Okay, we’ve got a special guest that’s coming up in a little bit. Not quite yet. But I’ve got my eye on the clock here. Let’s expand on, as you added, asset management into the mix. So, very common in our space. I got into the business in ‘07 and I just saw this evolution happen. You had the religion of insurance, the religion of wealth management. They were like warring tribes back in ‘07.

And then the world just kind of converged to where it all came together. And the way I look at it is a fiduciary approach is have all the tools in the toolbox and then select the best one that fixes the problem and help your clients go do what they want to do, right? So, how hard was that? Because it’s a lot more complex. You’ve got a lot more different rules and regulations on that side. Were there any stumbling blocks as you all expanded into wealth management and just understanding how to serve your clients from that side?

Sabrina Brown: Oh, yes. There were so many stumbling blocks. I mean, it’s a completely different industry, really, that you’re trying to bring into something that you’ve been doing for, at that point, over a decade. And there were so many, I mean, you’re testing my memory here. I don’t even know which ones to start with. I feel like we were so used to selling a product and I think that became a little bit of a crutch for us, where it was like the advisors, Dana and Tyler, had a hard time selling us and the plan versus selling a product.

Brad Johnson: Selling somebody else’s stuff.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. And so, it was really overcoming that. They’ve done so much work on that front, because I know that was a struggle, but then on the ops side, it was, oh, now we have SEC regulations or state regulations that we know nothing about. And the compliance component of that is so– there’s so much to learn. We’re still learning it. I mean, I don’t even feel like we will ever really know everything.

Brad Johnson: Well, I mean, we have two full-time compliance and suitability people and that’s they’re constantly dealing with all the updates.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. It’s so overwhelming. And so, we really had to kind of break it down, start from the beginning. Okay, what compliance piece or operational pieces can we put into place that help us with X, Y, Z? What are the most important things that we need to focus on while we build this out? And so, we eventually– now we have a compliance associate that helps us. So, we’ve hired someone just for compliance because it’s just such a beast, but I know that’s not attainable for everyone in the beginning. And so, that was a huge piece of it as well. That was just a stumbling block for us.

Brad Johnson: I feel like what I’ve seen with a lot of advisors that make that transition, they’re like excited. Hey, I unlocked a new side of my business. But it’s almost like, what’s the recipe? It’s overwhelming. It’s like, I don’t really know where to start. Like if you were going to give advice to maybe there’s a lot of firms that are just getting their 65, just expanding into that side, how would you kind of break it down? Like, here’s a couple tips or steps I would give you.

Sabrina Brown: I would say make sure that you have a really good partner in that venture. So, Triad Wealth has been amazing for us, that you can kind of even just vent to or, back and forth, have ideas or brainstorm or learn from. So, have a really good partner that you can reach out to, and then use them to help prioritize kind of what you do next. But again, we’re just very fast implementers. So, we’ve learned not to be scared of it. If we embrace it and we embrace the challenges, we’re going to learn from them.

So, obviously, we don’t want to make mistakes with people’s lifelong savings or money. We never want to sacrifice the client. But if it’s an operational thing or just something that we’re trying in the office, we’re going to try it and see if it works, and if not, we’ll change it. But not being afraid of the process because it’s very similar if you break it down by just process. It’s, hey, we’re going to open the account, we’re going to transfer assets, we’re going to make sure that they’re set up for reviews. So, it’s just breaking it down piece by piece.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. So, I kind of look at– this might be a bad analogy. It’s almost like the insurance side is playing checkers. The wealth management side is chess. It’s a board game. There’s just more moving parts over on this side, a little more complexity.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. But the only way you’re going to learn is if you do it, right? Because there’s so many things that people can tell you, but until you’re in it, you don’t actually realize kind of what the game is and how it works and how you should tweak operations and things like that. So, I think starting is the first part. Just start, make sure that you’re obviously prepared and you’re acting as a fiduciary, but everything else, you’ll be able to learn from along the way.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, kind of last question here before we bring a special guest here that’s out here, Dallas, with us. Grace, you’re on deck. Okay, Grace?

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: All right. So, as we look at what we coach at Triad, built on a CFP standard, and back to the comment you made of selling products versus selling a process. Very different sale. And what I love, you said it, we have to sell us. Like you all are the ones that build the process, oversee the process, curate it, review it, track it along the way. So, what I’ve seen a lot is kind of the annuity piece of it for retirees. It’s really the fixed income sleeve of a retiree’s financial plan.

So, then as you expanded services, you’ve now got investments that you’re dealing with. You were, I’m sure, doing some form of tax planning prior. But now you’ve expanded tax planning opportunities. You’ve got healthcare, which there are some riders and benefits on annuities, and I know you guys were doing life insurance. So, some of those, like two of six ADL sort of riders and benefits. You’ve got legacy and estate planning. Obviously, life insurance covers a lot of that. So, it’s almost like, okay, you expanded the toppings on the pizza. Horrible analogy, but…

Sabrina Brown: Oh, I love it. Yeah, exactly.

Brad Johnson: So, now you’ve got more options for your clients. So, you can serve them at a higher level. How did you start to message that? Because it’s like, back in the day, we took care of you here, but now, we can do all of this too. So, how did you start to roll that out? Were there things you did well? Were there things you messed up? Did you go back and change?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, I think we really did like a soft rollout for quite a while until we started to be more confident in the process. We didn’t initially just advertise it to all of our clients. They would come in for a review, and then we would kind of go through the new process with them and let them know and kind of uncover assets that way. And so, I think that helped us get our feet wet without putting so much pressure on the team. And so, we did that for a while until we felt good about it.

Brad Johnson: So, no big, hey, client event, we’re doing this now. You literally almost like eat the elephant one bite at a time with just as reviews came up, just kind of drip it out.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Okay.

Sabrina Brown: Which I was really proud of because usually, we would’ve been like, okay, here we go, we’re going to advertise this and it’s going to…

Brad Johnson: Be chaos.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. And we’re going to set a bunch of appointments. But this was such a big thing. Like you said, there’s so much more that goes into it. And so, we really did take our time and get our feet wet with it. And then, eventually, once we felt confident with our process, we did have an announcement made, hey, we are now offering full financial planning. Here’s our team. We really kind of shined a light on the team and not just the advisor because for the longest time, it was just Dana, just Tyler. And they knew me because I did all the backend stuff, but they didn’t really know anyone else.

Brad Johnson: So, it was almost, I’m picturing like a housewarming party where it’s like, hey, we expanded our services. Here’s all the new cool stuff we can do, in addition to what we did to kind of set the foundation earlier. And by the way, we built out a team to be able to deliver on this. Was this a big client event?

Sabrina Brown: Yep. So, they came to our office. So, it was similar to a housewarming party. They came in. We had it all set up. We had snacks. We had some drinks, food, and they got to meet the team.

Brad Johnson: Cool.

Sabrina Brown: And so, that was our official launch, if you will, of the wealth management.

Brad Johnson: Do you remember about when that was?

Sabrina Brown: That was probably 2023.

Brad Johnson: Okay. Well, give us a little update. Okay, so 2023 total assets, 2024, 2025. We’re now recording this in March of 2026. So, give us a little snapshot of that growth.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. So, I actually think maybe it was 2024 if I’m remembering correctly.

Brad Johnson: Grace is nodding behind you, just so you know.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah, okay, good. Yeah. You’re testing my memory, Brad. I’m like, what date, what year was this? So, I think 2024 was the year. And the only reason I say that is because today is Grace’s two-year anniversary. And so, she was…

Brad Johnson: Let’s go.

Sabrina Brown: I know. She was so instrumental and pivotal for us because she became initially the first, she started in client service, just doing service work. But then she quickly, I think it was like two days, she proved that she could do way more than just service work. And Dana Fashion grabbed her for an appointment. I had a huge vacation planned, so I was leaving unfortunately as she was coming on board. But anyway, sorry, back to your question. I think 2024 was when it started and then we hired Grace and that was a huge pivotal moment for us in 2024.

Brad Johnson: So, if we look at that, because you– I look at the last two years. I mean, not that you all were not experiencing growth before that. But the last two years have been wild.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, it’s been wild.

Brad Johnson: So, total assets gathered in 2024, do you remember?

Sabrina Brown: It was somewhere around six, maybe it was 50, 50 to 60 million.

Brad Johnson: 50, 60. Okay. And if I’m just looking back, 2019, 2020-ish, half of that, built out the team a bit. Any idea where team size was, 2024-ish?

Sabrina Brown: I think it was probably seven or eight.

Brad Johnson: Okay. And then last year where I feel like Zig Ziglar has this old analogy where he’s like, the old school well, the handles, I don’t know. I grew up on a farm, so we had these old wells where you’d pump the handle and nothing would happen for like a minute. And then eventually, it primed and it started to go. And I feel like 2024 was the pumping of the handle. 2025, it started to go, yeah. So, how’d 2025 end up?

Sabrina Brown: 2025, we did 110 million in assets and we hired 10 more people.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, and I even feel like, because that’s a big jump of hires and some people, there’s advisors out there saying that’s a lot of overhead. But the truth is you’re building out a completely different business on the wealth management side, much more service based. And also, I know you’re hiring for where you’re going, as opposed to a lot of advisors, they hire six months late. And they’re already, everybody’s under water and burned out. So, do you feel like you’ve paced that pretty well as far as…

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. I mean, Dana might disagree with me. Dana loves to make the joke that I love to hire people, but that’s the op side of me, right? So, I see all the holes that need to be filled and I fill them before it becomes a huge problem. And I know that that can be very stressful on founders, right? There’s overhead and things that they think about, but it does increase efficiency. And so, one of the things that I’ve told Dana is, hey, I’m hiring this person because it’s going to release my bandwidth and then I can help build the business and make it more profitable and make it more productive. And so, there’s beauty in hiring for efficiency’s sake. It might not be immediate ROI, but you will see it over time. You just have to be patient.

Brad Johnson: And what’s cool is you all have, I see it from my side, there’s a trust. You trust him. He trusts you. I know Tyler’s in that mix too. But the other thing, Dana and I were having this conversation the other day. I’ve seen this a lot. When you start on the insurance side of the business, like January 1, you restart every year, because it’s basically a front commission, right? As you build out the wealth management side, it’s like the snowball that’s like this big. And then it starts to roll downhill and then it’s a little bigger the next year. A little bigger. But now you’re starting to build, it’s essentially an annuity for your business because it’s recurring revenue to where, if you drop the ball on that side, that business goes away.

Sabrina Brown: Right.

Brad Johnson: You don’t take care of your clients, that 110, it’s not 110 next year. And so, there is a responsibility and a team that must be built on that side. But as you start to get some scale, and y’all are, what’s the AUM now?

Sabrina Brown: 150 million.

Brad Johnson: 150, and it was two years ago at 30?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Brad Johnson: So, it’s growing exponentially, which it requires the hiring side.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, definitely. Yep, it’s not all about selling, which is one thing I joke around with Dana because he’s sales and I’m ops. And we have tough conversations, but we always come to an agreement. We can see both perspectives and have respect for both perspectives and then come to something that makes sense for us. But yeah, it’s the AUM.

Brad Johnson: It’s a dance always.

Sabrina Brown: It is, definitely.

Brad Johnson: Well, I think it’s time. What do you think? Should we invite our special guest?

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Because Grace has been a big piece of, as you all have expanded out your offerings and how that’s communicated to the clients. So, I definitely want to get into that.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: For sure.

Sabrina Brown: All right, Grace.

Brad Johnson: Well, let’s do it. Grace, come on, let’s go.

Brad Johnson: Well, Grace, welcome to the party.

Grace Suchy: Oh my God, thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here.

Brad Johnson: Well, we’re glad you’re here. And this was really cool. Shout out to Sabrina, by the way. Here’s a leadership lesson. I queue up Sabrina. I’m like, “Hey, we’re going to be in Dallas. What do you think? I think this will be really fun to kind of unpack your all’s journey at Reliance.” And she’s like, “Hey, Grace is going to be out here too. Any chance we could have her join? I think she could really add to the conversation.” So, that is leadership. That is going back to I see my team as my client. And I mean, that’s what a team captain does, is they pull other players in the game. So, Grace, we were just talking. You actually spent 17 years in finance, and banking, left for a stint, then came back to Reliance.

But what was really cool, you’re applying that same skillset that you learned there differently now. Can you kind of walk through that because I want to get to how you’ve helped Reliance really expand their services with their existing clients and some of the results from that.

Grace Suchy: Yeah. So, just kind of like my origin, I started super young at 17 or 18 at the bank, and then kind of worked up and was very quickly a financial specialist for Wachovia, where we kind of cross-sold everything. But like I was explaining, like a lot of the role there is like people come in with a checking account or a very basic service, or I need to change my pin number on a debit card or whatever, and you need to turn that into something beautiful, basically. That’s your livelihood essentially. And I had a lot of client referrals. In fact, I had a referral source who ended up hiring me, and that’s why I left the industry for about 10 years. I worked for an elder law firm. But I noticed that clients weren’t getting the service from their advisors.

So, in my old role, I was like kind of working with advisors a lot, trying to get powers of attorney approved or trust funding and things of that nature. And I noticed that people just weren’t getting the service that they deserve from their advisors. And I said to myself, if I knew then what I know now, I would be a superpower in this industry. And that’s what kind of led me back. I wanted to just take care of people essentially. So, coming into Reliance, I started in client service. I knew I was going to have to like ramp back up into the industry. But like Sabrina said, I literally was in client service for two exact days. Before, Dana was like…

Brad Johnson: Were underutilizing your skillset, basically, or…?

Grace Suchy: Well, this is kind of a funny story. So, like Dana comes over and he says…

Sabrina Brown: And I just want to preface this by saying I told Dana, “Please don’t talk to Grace. It’s her first week.” Because I just knew he would be wild.

Brad Johnson: He would blow the org chart up.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Grace Suchy: Oh my God. So, Dana came over to me, and he’s like, “Are you ready?” And I said, “For?” And he’s like, “Let’s go.” I’m like, “Where are we going?” And I picked up my laptop, and then I was just kind of like sitting with him and observing him with clients, which was really good. It gave me a good base as to like the sales process at Reliance and like the things to talk about. But where I really ended up becoming comfortable because of my background was really the review space. So, that was a need for the business because Dana’s very much like prospect-focused, and they really didn’t have someone that was like, really, like client reviews and like dealing with the existing client base. And that’s something I’m like super comfortable with.

So, I saw an unmet need, and I was very excited to get into that and make it my own. And so, I really applied the same skills that I would apply at the bank to every client review. So, I go into each meeting, and I have a process and a way questions that I ask. I say, “Well, we’re here to review your annuity, but before I start, is there anything you want to make sure I cover in this meeting?” Just that question alone sometimes opens up, “Well, actually, I have this 401(k).” You know what I mean? Or “Actually, I have this other thing that I want you to look at.” So, that first question I start every meeting with that question has opened up business for me.

Brad Johnson: What percentage of the time do more things get added to the list?

Grace Suchy: Oh my gosh. I mean, I would say 75%.

Brad Johnson: Three out of four people are like, “Well, yeah, and actually this too.”

Grace Suchy: Yeah, because people, like I said, have a lot of unmet needs, right? And I’m in this business because I love clients and I love servicing clients and I care about my clients so much. Like, even somebody I’ve just met, I just want to get in there and help them. So, I try to approach it in a very, and I feel like I’m very genuine, and I come across very genuine when I’m dealing with the clients, and I think that helps build trust instantly. The other thing I do is I always start by going through the product that they have and explaining it to them, and they love that. It builds trust. It shows them that I’m knowledgeable and that I’ve taken the time to learn about them and what they have. And I just have questions that I ask.

I’ll say things like, “Well, help me understand how this fits in with your portfolio.” Or I’ll say this is obviously a very safe instrument. Do you have a lot of market exposure? So, those are questions that I’ll ask to kind of open up other conversations in terms of like, “Well, yes, I have market exposure,” and “Oh, have you been having conversations with your advisor as of late, and et cetera? Let me show you our planning process.” And a lot of times I’ll kind of pivot to, “Well, are you aware of how the business has changed, especially with an annuity-only person that might have just been there since annuity origins?” And they’re like, “No.” And I’m like, “Well, let me show you what we do now.”

And that will bring me into going to the board and showing them five worlds, showing them our safety income growth method, and really talking about planning and how valuable that is and how that can really change the trajectory of retirement, having a plan. And when I start bringing that up, like I feel very confident that many, many people, I would say 80% of people are not getting that from their advisors. Like, I really feel that way. It’s what I saw in my previous job as well. So, when I’m showing them like, “Hey, this is what it could be, like they want to experience that,” and I’m excited about it. So, I’m hoping that excitement comes through to them as well. So, it has been like, I’ve been shocked at how like, I’m like, “Whoa. Oh my God, I can’t believe I got this one.” You know what I mean?

Brad Johnson: Well, I mean, it’s having a servant heart. It’s not, “Hey, I’m here to sell you another product. Let’s talk about it. It’s literally, I mean, going back to the analogy we made earlier, where I’ve seen a lot of founders and advisors get stuck and leads to burnout. If you’re running a fast food shop and every other person in the cash register line is a free refill, somebody that’s already a client that’s bought, you will get bogged down, and it will slow the growth. And, sorry, bad analogy, but basically what Reliance did is, “Hey, you’re already like a VIP with this. Let’s take you over to this line. And by the way, did you know we’ve got these three new menu items that can serve you at even a higher level that we haven’t even told you about? That’s on us. Our bad, but what do you think?”

And a lot of them are saying, “Yeah, that sounds pretty amazing. That’s way better than I’m getting where I’m at.” So, I believe 2025 brought in almost 30 million of new assets. I think you said 27.

Grace Suchy: Yes.

Brad Johnson: Because we want to be accurate.

Grace Suchy: I’m very precise.

Brad Johnson: And you are now going back to these existing clients, and I believe you said over half of those assets were held away. Reliance didn’t oversee them. Any idea? Was it 20 mil? Was it 15?

Grace Suchy: Yeah, I was actually thinking about that, and like as I was sitting over there, like in case you asked me, and I would say it was at least 20 million of that was from the existing client base.

Brad Johnson: So, 20 mil, and for those that aren’t clear, five worlds CFP standard plan. I know what Dana does that I love. He kind of draws it out on the board. The foundational piece is income, which, by the way, I completely agree with. You can’t retire without income. Old job doesn’t keep paying you, unfortunately. So, you’re like, “Hey, we took care of the foundational piece. But we could do this, this, this, and this. So, in those real-world conversations, what is kind of hitting home? Is it marrying the investment philosophy with the safety? Is it, “Oh, we could expand into tax planning.” Like, what do you see the common topics that are like, “I need that”?

Grace Suchy: It’s a variety of things. So, to many clients, when they have an annuity, they don’t think of that as income. They think of that as an investment, right? So, I mean, that’s just how, even though it is an income product, that’s how…

Brad Johnson: Yeah. It’s like, it’s in the junk drawer of stuff, statements.

Grace Suchy: Yeah. I mean, that’s how they think about it. So, I go through all the worlds, and I really try to hyperfocus on what I usually pick out in that conversation where I see them light up, or maybe they’ve shared something with me that I’m like, hey, I’ll point out in the particular world I’m in, “Hey, that thing you just mentioned, that’s here,” or, “Hey, I noticed based on what you’re telling me, it sounds like you have a tax problem. You really need some tax planning.” Like, I will pick out very personal to them, what’s important to them, because the other key to this that I think a lot of people miss that they’re very scared of is I do a fact find before I have that conversation, and I make sure I understand where their assets are before I start going into financial planning, basically.

Brad Johnson: Is it the standard fact-finding that Dana would use in a first? Is it an abbreviated, partially filled-out fact find because they’re already a client? What’s the same and what’s different?

Grace Suchy: Well, one of my keys to meetings and review meetings is my meeting prep. So, I prepare a fact finder. I fill out everything that I know so that I’m not sitting there writing things that I should already know in front of the client. I’m just trying to fill in the holes, basically, but I’m going to fill in the holes because then I can make my demonstration more personal to them. And that’s what I think is really impactful when you can make it personal, when you can hit the pain points, which I’m going to probably find in that conversation. That’s what really I think like kind of approaching it in that way has made me successful because at the end of the day, I just want to help them.

And if I just start talking about like five worlds, whatever, and it’s just like this generic thing, then to me, that’s not going to motivate someone to move forward with me. If I’m like, “Hey, you said this or you told me this, and I have some concerns in this particular area for you,” that’s when they say, “Oh my gosh. Like she’s really listening to me. She’s like hearing what I’m saying, and she wants to help me. And she’s understanding my situation already, basically. Like, how great would it be if she understood more?” You know what I mean? And I do really like to teach, so I look at it as like I’m teaching the client basically. And that’s why I have the board, and I’ll even sit, joke with them.

I’ll be like, “I’ve always wanted to be a teacher,” and they let me have this board. Like I joke with the clients. But they see me more as a teacher, as a partner, as someone that’s there to kind of help and guide them, and they don’t see me, I don’t think, as like a salesperson per se.

Brad Johnson: Well, and that’s good. I mean, that’s what you want. And by the way, there is psychology to being the teacher. They’re sitting there. They’re the student. You’re popping up on the board. The thing I’m kind of getting that’s coming in my mind is I think a lot of advisors think of this linear path. So, we do a first, that’s a fact find. We do a second. That’s kind of the before and afters and commitment. We do the third. That’s the asset allocation. And then a lot of them are like, “Oh, job done. Next.” The truth is that’s the beginning for the client. They’re like, “Okay, I signed up. Now what?” And so, what you’re doing, you’re following that progression, and you’re saying, “Hey, you’re opening up and allowing them to speak into it. Hey, anything else?”

It’s one thing when it’s a prior client that just kind of have the income piece. It’s another thing because the newer clients, you’re building the full thing out. But guess what? Life’s going to change. Retirement’s going to happen. Death in the family, inheritance, that sort of stuff’s going to happen. So, now it’s an ongoing conversation. You’ve got the fact sheet, and now you are letting it evolve with their retirement. And guess what? They’re saying, “Oh yeah, I actually do need help here.” “Cool. We can help you.” “I do need help here.” “Cool. I can help you.” So, you are loving on them and, weird, $27 million of assets. And we want that. How cool is that?

Grace Suchy: I mean, and the thing is it’s just very personally rewarding, and it really brings me a lot of joy in what I do. It’s my favorite thing is just being with the clients and just helping them. I love when I show them something that they were unaware of, and it lights up their face. Like, maybe I’ve researched something on the tax side that I’m like, “Oh, they can really take advantage of this.”

Brad Johnson: I love, by the way, you’re connecting the dots where when you open up the question at the beginning to give them space to speak into it. And then you’re going up on the board as a teacher and saying, “This is actually where this fits. We help there. We can help you.” So, you’re connecting the dots where I think a lot of advisors they get real deep, talking a bunch of acronyms, and talk way over their head and confuse people, and they’re like, “I don’t even know what they just said.” You’re just literally making it like so simple.

Grace Suchy: Yeah. And also, something that is really cool is when I’m showing them how the product that they have, that we sold them, how that fits in. Like, that’s where I see this in your plan, basically.

Brad Johnson: I want to hit that because I’ve seen a lot of advisors way overthink. And the whole insurance annuity world, a lot of selling of safety sometimes, when people were coming up marketing, “Oh, you don’t want the market in retirement.” And so, they feel like they’re almost like going back on what they said. The truth is you just didn’t offer it. And where I’ve seen a lot of advisors change is, like, “Well, I can either expand my offerings, or I’m sending them down the road.” And now it’s like having two general contractors build your dream home. How’s that going to work? And so, you’re basically saying, “Good news, what we did before, we can expand on that.” So, it’s like you poured the foundation of the house. Let’s build the rest of the house out now.

Grace Suchy: Exactly.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. Have you ever seen a client like, “How dare you guys have done that?” I mean, like, I just feel like it’s just, yeah, you did a great job on step one. Now let’s build out the steps. Has there ever been a negative out of that conversation?

Grace Suchy: No. I mean, I don’t have many people being negative. I would say what I see more is people not understanding the purpose behind what they have.

Brad Johnson: Because they had a product.

Grace Suchy: Right.

Brad Johnson: Not a plan.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Grace Suchy: And they didn’t really understand, like maybe they actually thought it was for one thing, but I see it differently, basically. And that’s part of sometimes you also have to have tough conversations with clients. Not like tough isn’t mean, but tough isn’t just honest and upfront. Like, hey, example, you’re taking a lot of free withdrawals from this annuity, but actually, you’re going to need this for income, so we’re going to need to figure something else out. And then kind of bringing that into like, “Hey, the benefits of having somebody who’s hyper aware of your full situation guiding you,” because being a trusted advisor to a client, it might just even involve simple questions of, “Hey, I need to take $5,000 out to fix my house. Which account do I take this from?”

They might inadvertently take it from an income-based annuity because they were thinking, “Oh, well, it’s an annuity, and I get 10% free withdrawal.” But they’re not actually thinking of the long-term implications of that decision. And so, having someone behind them that can actually give them the implications of that decision, and that’s what I try to do for everyone, and like really try to explain to them like this is my recommendation and let me tell you why this is my recommendation. I think that that’s very powerful, and I think that that can actually set the advisor/the firm apart when dealing, like I think it makes the firm stand out. If this is the way we’re advising, if we are holistic, then I see wonderful things for all of us.

And so, that’s why when Dana onboards a client, he brings me in as kind of like the planning advisor/service advisor, it gives me great joy to be able to pick up that client and then like, “Let’s show you. You’ve onboarded with us. Let me show you now what we can do.” Let me show you how great this is going to be, because then you’re going to tell your brother or your family member, or I do have a little bit of a next-door following now.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. She gets so many referrals. Yep.

Brad Johnson: Well, so by the way, back to your loving to hire, here is the ROI on hiring and building out that team.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: And I’ve seen it, Michelle Short, who you referenced, their firm, it started out back in the day, a third of their new assets each year were referrals. As they’ve continued to do world-class planning and build it out, it’s actually ramped. I think last year it was like over 50%, maybe close to two-thirds. So, what it becomes is an actual marketing engine for your business because I think a lot of advisors are like, “Oh, that’s expensive. Oh, more payroll.” Well, done right, that’s an investment. That’s an ROI. It’s actually a marketing engine for the rest of your business. So, anything you want to say to Dana right now, just in case he comes back?

Sabrina Brown: Dana, if you’re listening. No, I think that’s exactly right. And I think a lot of sales, like you said, is psychology, it’s relationship building. And that is what allows people to feel like they’re being heard and seen is if you’re building that relationship, you’re understanding what their needs are, specifically referencing their beneficiaries that they have on their annuity policies, things like that. But, yeah, Grace is an incredible relationship builder at the end of the day. And I think if more advisors kind of focused on that piece of it, they would see immense success with what they’re doing.

Brad Johnson: Grace, I didn’t ask you this before, so this is completely off the cuff, but I want to get your honest answer. If you and Dana had to switch roles tomorrow and you were now a salesperson, you were doing seminars, you were doing firsts and getting commitments, and seconds, would you love it? I’m just curious because I see a lot of people in your role kind of gravitate.

Sabrina Brown: She’s a 3, so she’ll do.

Brad Johnson: She’s like whatever it takes to win.

Grace Suchy: I mean, yeah. So, I do actually do some educational events. And I just love doing educational events because I love to educate. I am very comfortable in the renewal, in the review space. I love what I do. I love second chairing. I have taken, I do, I will take first meetings. I’ve taken, I think in the two years I’ve been there, I would say maybe 15 at most. Like, there hasn’t been a ton. And some of those were like client referrals that were, I’m going to take a client referral. You know what I mean?

Brad Johnson: Because that’s a very warm handoff. It’s like, I just took care of your friend. Cool. Take care of my other friend. I feel like that’s almost not too far off what you’re already doing right now.

Grace Suchy: But I’m not like, I’m very good one-on-one. I’m very comfortable in the review space. I don’t necessarily like the pressure that comes with prospect meetings. I like the warm meeting. I don’t have to necessarily introduce the company to people. People are familiar with the company because they’re already clients in their mind, and that is where I’m happiest and what I like to do.

Brad Johnson: Okay. So, I completely asked that, not knowing where you would go. Did I ask you that before? You had no idea that was coming. That is very common where people that excel in that role, they actually don’t want the pressure. And by the way, Dana’s probably the exact opposite. He loves the rush, the new people. And I had a coach tell me your differences are your strengths. That’s really important to know as you build a team. And I think another mistake I see in a lot of firms everybody needs to eventually be the sales advisor. No. No.

Sabrina Brown: Exactly.

Brad Johnson: You specialize, and you complement each other, and think about what you’ve done for Dana now. He doesn’t have the stress of, well, I brought on a hundred new clients this year, and now I’ve got a hundred reviews that keeps stacking on me. And so, now, and you’re serving your clients at an exponentially higher level now because Dana sure couldn’t do it when he was doing all the other stuff. And so, now you’ve started to build out the structure where you specialize. You serve the clients at a higher level. You love what you do. Dana loves what he does. And I’m saying this more for the advisors out there because I’ve seen this mistake over and over, where it’s like everybody must follow this track, and there’s only one.

And that is absolutely where I’ve seen a lot of people get themselves in trouble, because now you got somebody that doesn’t technically love the sales piece of it. You’re more wired to the relationship piece to where you’re not using your God-given gifts, you know? So, any additional thoughts just as you’ve seen that evolve from either of your chairs, just on that?

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s a great point. I think advisors, sales advisors, get really excited when they have someone brilliant on their team, like Grace, and they say, “She’s going to be a sales advisor.”

Brad Johnson: Let me clone myself.

Sabrina Brown: Yes. But what they don’t realize is she has different skills. She enjoys the relationship building. And so, if you put people where they enjoy and find purpose, that’s what’s going to bring the best results.

Brad Johnson: Well, and now as you all grow and evolve, Grace will be able to replicate her role for more advisors like her on the team. Dana, so back to my analogy, I way overuse, but now you’ve got multiple cash registers. But it sure doesn’t do you any good if Dana’s cash register’s broken, and then you just replicate the next. I had this exact conversation last night, where a lot of advisors just pass their problem to the new guy or new girl. And then they get burned out, and then they pass it to the next one. And it’s like this domino effect, know what you’re actually doing is building a structure that scales to where now each of the people are doing their role that serves the client. And now you just replicate the role, not the problem.

Sabrina Brown: Yes, exactly. And you’re serving the client best when you do that, and you’re not creating a revolving door of, “Hey, oh, this person is servicing me this year, but then next year it’s someone else.”

Brad Johnson: Yeah. You can build relationships.

Sabrina Brown: Right.

Brad Johnson: Yes.

Sabrina Brown: Yes.

Brad Johnson: What else has it done? So, when does Dana bring you into the conversation? Is it when they engage? Is it the second, third?

Grace Suchy: Sometimes he’ll bring me in in the second meeting. Sometimes, if a client is like, let’s say a client that maybe he onboarded like in the first few years of wealth management is needing a review, he’ll bring me into that, and I’ll essentially, so once I go into that review, it’s like I’m taking it from there basically. And I will say this about Dana is really good. And so, he doesn’t have like I’m just saying an ego, like in terms of like how I can envision, like some people may, he is…

Brad Johnson: Egos and finance? No way. No, I love where you’re going with this.

Grace Suchy: He’s really good at pumping me up to the client.

Brad Johnson: Yes.

Grace Suchy: He’s not like, it’s just me, basically. He’s like, “Hey, I’m bringing Grace into this meeting.” He tells the client sometimes in advance, or he’ll say, “I’m going to have Grace call you. Let me tell you about Grace.” And then he will just like talk about how wonderful I am for like 10 minutes and like really sell the client on me. I mean, I’m fabulous, but like they don’t know me yet, right? But that is super helpful because it makes the client feel very comfortable then when I then step in. And then it’s up to me to show the client that what Dana said was true. You know what I mean? Like to then show up for the client and show up for Dana with his client and make sure that Dana can feel comfortable knowing like, “Hey, I got it from here.”

Like, these clients are going to be well taken care of. If these clients need things, like I insanely care about making sure clients are taken care of, that they get what they need, that they have things properly explained. And this role that I have is not a role that should be forgotten in any firm, because especially as you’re onboarding quickly, people coming in, coming in, coming in, you absolutely have to have somebody that is dedicated to servicing them, that loves servicing them. Like, I see my role as being as important as the sales because I’m retaining the business basically.

Brad Johnson: Well, I would say most clients would say their journey begins when you enter.

Grace Suchy: Yes.

Brad Johnson: And most advisors are like, “Oh, it’s over.” So, that’s the mindset shift you have to make. One thing that I want to make sure to hit on, I’ve seen this done well, I’ve seen it done not well. So, what you just explained is kind of the handoff. So, what we talked about last night is Scale Summit. If you want to scale a team, it’s we, it’s us, it’s team. It’s not I and me and most advisors, it is I and me. Dana and Tyler, when they got there, I and me. They were the whole team, sales, service, planning, everything. So, as you change that model, one of the other mistakes I’ve seen a lot is what we call the baton throw versus the baton pass. So, it’s like I’m burned out. I’ve got a hundred clients. They’re C clients or whatever you title them.

And it’s like, “Here you go, Grace. Here’s your new book of business. Enjoy.” And imagine the client perspective of that. They’ve met with Dana for like five years. That’s why they joined the firm. And all of a sudden it’s like, “Am I not good enough? Is this place gotten too big? Do I not matter?” And there’s a couple of things you hit that are really key, introducing you into the conversation and building you up. So, it’s a lot of advisors, unintentionally, a client feels demoted. And what Dana’s doing is saying, “Good news, your service level just went up. We’re bringing Grace on the team. All this stuff we wanted to do but didn’t have the bandwidth to do. Now, we can so additional benefits,” not, “Oh, sorry, you don’t have enough money to meet with me anymore.”

Sabrina Brown: Yep.

Brad Johnson: And then the other thing, because there are two groups here, one are the new ones. That’s easy. The new ones, you’re in the conversation the second or third. So, what they know is the process that they learned. So, it’s just natural to them. The old ones are always the tough ones because it’s like, “Wait, I met with Dana every year for the last 15 years.” I’m sure you have some that are still holding on so that there always are. But now, just bring you in alongside the next review. “Hey, by the way, we’ve got Grace. She’s a rock star. All these things we were wanting to do but didn’t have the bandwidth to do. Now, Grace can help walk you through that.”

So, either way, either of those two pools of people, you’re bringing you alongside the baton pass, not the throw. And I will tell you that right there, every advisor that builds out the team, I’ve seen that messed up, and I’ve seen it done right. And that is the way to do it.

Grace Suchy: I mean, and for me too, like you don’t want to be thrown in a meeting where maybe they don’t even know they’re meeting with me. And then it’s like, “Oh, well, wait, who are you?”

Brad Johnson: Yeah, who are you? What’s your name? It’s like a blind date.

Grace Suchy: Because then you have like 20 minutes of like, “Oh, 20 minutes of apologizing and then getting to the point where like…

Brad Johnson: “Oh, sorry, Dana had to go run and get his kids,” like you’re making excuses.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. And they’re already on the defense.

Grace Suchy: Yeah. I mean, he does it in a beautiful way where he actually will even he’ll say like, “She’s better at me than this.” Like he is…

Brad Johnson: And he’s right.

Grace Suchy: But I understand like that could be hard for some people to say. You know what I mean? But we have such a beautiful partnership in that way, and it works so well. I go to work, and I’m happy every day just to do what I do and take care of the clients, and I don’t have the pressure of like, “Oh, we spent a lot of money on this seminar. We better close all these.” You know what I mean? To me, like, although maybe I could close them, I just really like what I do, basically.

Brad Johnson: It’s a beautiful dance when done right. And by the way, like going back to the beginning of this story, your role allows Dana to go to the lake house and not be completely stressed out and not have a bunch of balls dropping when he takes a couple of weeks off with the family. And by the way, the clients are served better when he’s gone now.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Brad Johnson: And even if he was there.

Grace Suchy: Yeah.

Sabrina Brown: Oh, yes, we love you, Dana, but we always want you to leave the office now because, number one, he deserves to, right? Like, he’s built this business from the ground up. But also, we have everyone that we need kind of in the mix to take care of everyone. So, it’s a good… It’s fun. And I mean, sometimes that’s been the origin of me taking a client. Maybe they call while he is not in the office. Like, I make myself available to the whole team in terms of like you’ll never hear out of my mouth. Well, that’s not my client. I don’t say that. Like, I just really want to help people.

So, even if someone calls in, and technically I’ve never met with them before, whatever, and let’s say it’s Dana or Tyler’s client, I will put the good faith effort forward to connect with that client to figure out what they need, to explain things to them, just to make sure they’re taken care of. I want to see people taken care of. The reputation of the firm is very important to me. And the service that we provide is a huge part of our reputation, and I feel very proud to be part of that every day.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, on that note, I’m proud. It’s been awesome to see your all’s growth. And what I do love about Dana and Tyler, they love the team. Like, that is two guys running the show that, to your point on ego, they don’t have it. I mean, they like to have a good time. And it’s really cool when you kind of set that aside and say, “Hey, this is a team sport. What can happen with proper hard work, proper frameworks, getting the right players on the team? And just I’m grateful to be partnered with you all because it’s just really fun. No different than you like lifelong learners on your team, we like them as members. It’s one of the reasons. It’s one of the criteria.

Because what I found is when you put a framework in front of somebody, and just in partnership work together, just beautiful things come out of it. And as Jefferson Fisher said last night, “What a cool business we’re in. We’re impacting generations we’ll never meet.” So, big responsibility.

Sabrina Brown: It is. Yes. We always say we take ourselves not so seriously, but we take our work very seriously. And so, that’s kind of one of our mantras in the office.

Brad Johnson: I love that.

Grace Suchy: We have a lot of fun. We do.

Sabrina Brown: Yeah.

Grace Suchy: And we make fun of each other, at least we do.

Sabrina Brown: All the time.

Brad Johnson: That’s the key.

Sabrina Brown: All the time. Yes. But we are grateful for you too, Brad. You have no idea how much you’ve impacted our lives, too. So, thank you and Triad for everything, really.

Brad Johnson: Well, I appreciate it, and we get to hang out for a few more days in Dallas, which by the way, we better get y’all the sessions because this, Grace, I was planning on 15, I think we went 30 because it was so good.

Sabrina Brown: She’s brilliant. Yeah.

Brad Johnson: Yeah. Alright, well let’s get back to Scale Summit.

Sabrina Brown: Okay. Let’s go.

Brad Johnson: Thanks, ladies.

Grace Suchy: Thank you.

Brad Johnson: We’ll see you.

[END]