Brad Johnson: Welcome back to another episode of Do Business. Do Life. I have Marisa Messana here with us today. Welcome to the show, Marisa.
Marisa Messana: Thank you, Brad. I’m excited to dive in.
Brad Johnson: Me too. This is a first: a professional golfer on the podcast. So, there’s a lot I can learn because my golf game is absolutely horrible. I’m sure you probably hear that a lot in business. Nobody’s golf games ever where they want it to be. But excited to dive into a lot of the mindset behind golf and how that applies to business today and hear some of your stories. So, as we kick this off, you’ve done work with Cisco, their C-Suite. You’ve done work with Procter & Gamble, their global sales team. You’ve done work in finance with JP Morgan, and that kind of taken some of the professional athlete mindset and applying it to business. If there’s one thing just to drop right out of the gates, what’s the synergy that worked in golf with mindset that translates to business?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. I mean, I think the one takeaway that I always share with my clients is to perceive yourself as a corporate athlete, right? Like, you have the same stressors, physiologically, that are holding you back. Whether it’s waking up to get your kids ready and go to school before you go to work, and then you have your entire stack schedule throughout the day, you are feeling these physiological stressors, physically, mentally, emotionally. So, again, you have to have these systems and processes in place in order to show up and be strong day in and day out, regardless of all the responsibilities that you have in your life, personally and professionally.
Brad Johnson: Imagine yourself as a corp athlete. I kind of like that. I was a college athlete, so it’s like now just applying it to business.
Marisa Messana: Exactly.
Brad Johnson: So, on that front, you had great success when you were at Clemson, helped lead that golf team to a run at the national championship, and obviously spent some time in pro golf. Give me like a story, “Hey, here was where I kind of got in my head in golf, and how I worked through that,” from kind of coaching your own mindset or maybe getting outside coaching to help you with your mindset. And then how that same concept might apply to business.
Marisa Messana: Yeah, totally. So, I mean, when you talk about the National Championship specifically, it’s funny because that was definitely a pivotal moment of my career where, as you mentioned, I led the team to the national championship for the first time in the history of the women’s golf program. So, we were all stoked to be there. I’m eating breakfast, chatting with my teammates, and all of a sudden, I hear my name is announced as the award recipient for the Elite 90 Award. And this award was given to the student athlete at the National Championship that also had the highest GPA.
So, I am at the pinnacle of success athletically and academically, and I am walking to the podium to receive this prestigious award, but I’m holding back tears. And they weren’t tears of pride and joy. They were tears of fear. And it was because although I was the most decorated student athlete at Clemson externally, internally, I was falling apart, and I didn’t feel like I had those systems and processes in place in order to maintain that level of high performance. And I think we’ve talked about this in the past, right, that I knew ultimately my end goal was to play professionally. And I knew new levels brings new devils, and it was going to only become more challenging the higher that I worked up the totem pole.
And at Clemson, I had all of my coaches, my trainers, everybody supporting me to where really, I just had to show up on game day and compete. But once you turn pro, it’s a one-woman show. So, not only do I have to compete in order to earn status and continue to advance on tour, but I also had to raise capital to fund my career in the beginning stages. I am negotiating my own sponsorship contracts. I’m booking my travel. And then of course, once you get there, you have to show up on game day and bring your best competition. So, I mean, that was really just such a pivotal moment for me to really look at, okay, what are those things that I need to do physically, mentally, emotionally, in order to take care of those responsibilities that we all have behind the scenes as well as showing up strong face forward, whether that’s on the golf course, in your business life, or in your personal life.
Brad Johnson: Well, a sheer coincidence would have it as you kind of told that story of like external success, internal like it almost sound like burnout, overwhelm. So, my wife’s sister, so my wife’s the head volleyball coach at the high school level, and her sister’s actually head sports psych at Kansas State University. And she spoke, we had a little high school kicking off the year sports meeting last night. And one of the things she was talking about is like the two sides of the spectrum for a lot of athletes, college athletes, of course, you were one, of the kind of on one side, you can have all this anxiety and fear and it’s fear and you’re running to it.
And on the other side, it can almost be like this adrenaline, where you’re like over amped up. And either side of that spectrum is not good, and she was talking about kind of this almost Zen-like neutral in the middle, where you’re like aware of it, but you’re kind of channeling it. Is that part of like that centering? Like, does that resonate with you at all?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. Oh my gosh, in so many ways. I mean, it’s interesting that you say that because right now, for this year even, one of the themes of myself and how I’m showing up this year is rooted, not rushed. And as that stereotypical athlete go-go mentality, I bring a sense of urgency to everything I do, right? However, I realize that sometimes that strength of mine can also hold me back from really being my best. And so, for me, I have to ground myself in that intention from the beginning of the day. And it’s almost like this ongoing meditation of like continually bringing myself back to that mantra of being rooted, not rushed, throughout the course of the day.
Because inevitably, you’re going to have notifications, stressors, everything that is inevitably going to overwhelm you with your responsibilities. So, how can you come back to that center state of, “Okay, I’m not going to let the external circumstances dictate my inner state, regardless of what happens.”
Brad Johnson: Very, very stoic approach. It’s like, “I’m not going to get worked up over what I can’t control.” Right?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, a couple soundbites that are kind of resonating that I’d love to dive into a bit more. So, the new levels, new devils, and then rooted, not rushed, which those two kind of play with each other too, like, those could work together. So, new levels, new devils. Let’s go back to that National championship story. You’re getting this award, which that was a new level that Clemson had been to, right? And then you go to another new level, which is the professional athletic side. How did you go from this external success, internal like kind of dying inside? How’d you work through that? I mean, did that come out during the national championship, where it wasn’t the performance you were hoping for? How did that play out?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. So, I think that was certainly an awareness moment for myself where I became aware of the fact that something’s not right here. I have to make a change in the way that I had been living my life to get to where I want to go next. So, it’s a gradual process of me becoming aware of, “Okay, what are those rituals and routines that I need to incorporate into my day-to-day, physically, mentally, emotionally, in order to feel as though I can be resilient regardless of whatever happens?” And then this transition slowly over the course of my career, where I incorporated what I call my mental gym, where what I do is it all started actually in two contexts.
But it all started how when you’re on the golf course after your round of golf, you track your stats, right? How many fairways did I hit? How many greens did I hit? What went well? What didn’t go well? And then you make a plan within your trading in order to improve whatever it is that you need to do in order to be better for the next round. But I realized that I wasn’t doing this for my personal life, and I realized that there were patterns that were in my personal life that I wasn’t aware of. So, how can I create this mental gym where I hold myself accountable to reviewing my week in the past and thinking about physically what went well, what didn’t go well, and what system or process do I need to implement in order to make sure that I don’t make that mistake again?
And I always say this, that I think that’s what differentiates the amateurs from the pros, the good to the great, whatever industry it is that you’re in, it’s really becoming aware of yourself and having that awareness to make sure that if you make a mistake, you’re not going to compound that mistake because you’re going to implement some type of system or process in your life in order to actually get better from whatever adversity it was that you experienced.
Brad Johnson: So, on kind of that self-awareness, which is key in business, in life, wherever you want to be successful, was this a Marisa did this on her own? Like, “Hey, I realize here’s what I’m feeling I need to change.” Did you get some external coaching that helped navigate you through that? What was your process to go from that to come out on the other side?
Marisa Messana: Both. I mean, of course, I have been working with world-class coaches for 15 years on my career in various different aspects, right? But I think what it really came down to was a decision that I had to make myself. Your coaches can’t give you all the answers. And I think that during that time, I was very reliant on my coaches to direct me on what I wanted to do. And I had set that goal for myself that I wanted to be a professional golfer, and I wanted to be the best at what I do. But even though I set that goal for myself years ago, as I grew older and as I matured and as I became more familiar with myself, I realized that wasn’t really the ideal version of what Marisa looks like, and the lifestyle that I was living wasn’t really leading me in that true north star of the direction where I wanted to go.
So, that was a goal that I set for myself when I was probably 10 years old, right? And I was still living that truth, realizing that that was really no longer that version of Marisa that I wanted to become. So, I had to get really honest with myself about that, which was a very difficult conversation that I had with myself, but ultimately led me to then pivot out of golf and realizing that I didn’t need to stay stuck in those patterns that I was creating really for decades of my career both playing as a junior golfer, a collegiate golfer, and then on tour.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, I want to dive in there because I see some parallels here to the world of finance, and a lot of our audience, they’re independent financial advisors, but at their heart, they’re entrepreneurs. They’re running their own businesses that just happens to be in finance, right? And I’m kind of playing with this idea of new levels, new devils, but also oftentimes what I see is you are almost living into an image sometimes in business, sometimes it sounds like in sports, to where this is what I’m supposed to be like, “As a 10-year-old, I want to be a pro golfer.” As a financial advisor, “I want to be the one walking across the stage, getting the accolades of like the number one in my firm,” whatever that may be.
And what it sounds like you realized is, “What I thought I wanted to be is not actually who, when I do the deep work, I actually want to be.” Is that what happened?
Marisa Messana: Yeah, totally. Yes, absolutely. And, to your point, I had set out to be that professional golfer, but I became very aware that I was building towards the top of the mountain, which was the wrong mountain. So, I could have continued to push through and continued to build to get there. But even you’ve heard those stories all the time where it’s like, “Oh, I’ve been working for this my whole life, and I realized this wasn’t even what I wanted.” And so, it was that honest conversation with myself where I said, “Okay. It’s scary to unpack this, right? But let’s dive in and let’s lean into those challenges or those discomforts that I was feeling.” I had a lot of internal dissonance where the internal turmoil was what led me to open up the can of worms and see what’s really going on there.
But through that process, that’s where the gold lies, and that’s where I uncovered what my true values are, what actually excited me, what fires me up so where I’m waking up every day really stoked to build towards that vision of myself that is genuinely aligning with my gifts, my strengths, and my values, which I uncovered through this process.
Brad Johnson: All right. So, I want to get real talk here because this conversation is very timely. I was just talking with a really good friend two days ago. And I see this happen a lot in finance, and I’d love to, I think your journey can parallel and maybe help some advisors out there kind of hitting that same inflection point. I call it almost like an identity crisis a little bit, right? And so, in our space, small business owners, oftentimes what happens, the world of financial advising, a lot of people accidentally become financial advisors like, “Oh, I get along with people, I’m good with relationships, and somebody told me I should, so I signed up for this class. I was one of 50 rookies in the room.” And then they look up two, three, four years later, and there’s like three left, and they were one of the survivors. Survival of the fittest, you know?
And so, then they go down this very solo journey of really, “It’s all on my shoulders.” Kind of like you when you went pro, you’re like, “I got to raise my own money. I’ve got to go to practice. I’ve got to show up and compete.” And it’s like you’re getting pulled 500 different directions. And that’s the very much the journey of a financial advisor. And then once they hit a certain level of success, I’ve got some clients, I’ve got some revenue coming in the front door, it actually starts to cave in because they’re a victim of their own success. They’re like, “There’s not enough of me to go around.” And what I see is this identity crisis because it’s been a ‘me’ game, an ‘I’ game, solopreneur.
And to get to the next level, they have to step into business owner. They have to step into CEO world. And what happens is it’s hard. It’s new rules. It’s like now they go to the bottom, where it’s like, now I have to grow leaders. I have to empower others. I have to have career tracks and a vision. And oftentimes, I see when it gets hard, they’re like, “Oh, this is too hard. I’m just going to go back to what I know.
Marisa Messana: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, can you speak to that? Did you have any of that in your journey, this kind of tug of war that you were dealing with? And how did you get through it?
Marisa Messana: Oh my gosh, my mind goes in so many different directions. Yes. I mean, the first thing that I think of is like that internal thermostat, which you may have heard that before, right? It’s like, are you acting as a thermostat where you set the temperature of the room, and you feel like you have that glass ceiling where once you hit 78, you bounce back down? But like that’s the threshold where you have to break through, and it’s all about getting comfortable being uncomfortable. Whether you’re in sports or whether you’re in life, like when you are uncomfortable, when you’re pushing those boundaries, it’s going to cause some discomfort. But you’ve got to be okay with that and know that that’s part of the journey, and you’ve got to get comfortable, I feel like.
As an entrepreneur, are you kidding me? The most successful people have the most failures behind them and realize, again, by going back to that mental gym, which is a ritual of mine, that empowers me through those failures, because I know that I’m just going to take that leap, but I know that I’m also going to be disciplined to learn something from that. So, if it works, hell yeah, that’s great. If it doesn’t work, okay, on Sunday I’m going to sit down and unpack why that didn’t work and then learn what I’m going to do moving forward in order to increase my confidence and my competence and my capacity as I grow.
So, I am like a huge advocate of always leaning into those challenges, leaning into the discomfort, and realizing that that’s where the success will lie on the other side. I mean, the mantra of my life is truly turning challenges into triumphs. And if you could embody that, I think that’s all you need to have a golden life.
Brad Johnson: Well, I love that. And so, I’m going back to this conversation. One of the phrases that was used, and I’d love to get your take on it, and maybe you experienced this. The exact phrase was, and this is me as an outsider, like I’m not in that office, but what I see is really successful and kind of done it a certain way and now stepping into a new game where it’s building and growing the team and really scaling this and creating a multiple-advisor firm through operations, like running a business, marketing, sales, operations. And the phrase that was shared with me is, “I feel like the last five or six months I’ve just lost my excitement for the business.”
And what I see outside is because you’re hitting these challenges, and they suck. Let’s just be honest. As an entrepreneur, it’s not fun to have personnel issues you haven’t dealt with before and all of the other things. So, how would you coach somebody through something like that?
Marisa Messana: Right. I mean, I’m just reframing that all the time. Like, we know that there’s going to be challenges on the path of excellence, and so it’s just accepting that you got to be along for the ride, right? And if you’re not, then maybe you’re not cut out for that. And that’s okay. Not everyone is meant to own their own business. But what I always encourage you to do is, A, uncover what are your true passions and what are your true values and interests, and where are you most curious? Like, where do you find yourself procrastinating and learning about certain emails that come in, like what are those topics? And then align your calendar in order to be able to dive into those topics.
And what are your strengths? And align your calendar to line up with those strengths. And then delegate the other things that don’t align with your strengths to other people on your team that their strengths do align with those tasks or hire the right people to where their strengths are in alignment. So, that’s where I think the energy audit comes in of just becoming familiar with yourself and what your genuine interests are in order to create a lifestyle that aligns with that zone of genius, those passions, skills, and interests that you uncover through the journey.
Brad Johnson: So, when you say energy audit, can you explain what that means?
Marisa Messana: Yeah, sure. So, what I do is that I write down every task that I’m completing throughout the course of the day. And then at the end of the day, I am putting the tasks that energized me, that I felt excited to complete, in green. And the ones that I were like, “Eh, this task was horrible,” I’m going to put that in red. And then I’m slowly starting to delegate those red tasks to other people in the world that actually enjoy doing those tasks, right? So, it’s just optimizing the intelligence of every individual person to make sure that they are in their zone of genius for the majority of their life, hopefully.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, some of this stuff isn’t rocket science. It’s just like, do the work, right?
Marisa Messana: Exactly. It’s really all it comes down to. It’s like having that framework and being disciplined to follow it, and that’s what is beautiful about the simplicity of this, whether it’s in life, business, and sport. It’s like having sound fundamentals and doing the small things that lead to profound results.
Brad Johnson: Okay. I’m going back to golf because, as you know, in finance, there are a lot of golfers. And so, let’s go back to, and maybe it’s part of the Clemson journey, maybe it’s part of your professional golf journey. But as we go into maybe like a story that from your actual career it can be, “Hey, crushed it here. This is what led to an awesome outcome,” or, “Didn’t crush it here. And this is the lesson learned and how I pivoted from there.” Do you have a story that kind of could be a business lesson that we could share? And by the way, if you want to throw in a golf tip or two, we’ve got a lot of golfers out there. They’re probably like, “Oh, a free golf tip from a former pro.” That could be cool. So, any thoughts there?
Marisa Messana: Okay. Yeah. So, where I would go with that kind of piggybacking on the sound fundamentals, is that something that is truly an important fundamental mantra for me, whether it’s on the golf course or in business? It’s really leaning into those fundamentals and making sure that you have a strong foundation. And so, what I mean by that is on the golf course, before I go out onto the golf course, I’m putting an alignment stick down right behind my club face every single time I go to the range in order to make sure that I am aligning in the direction of where my target is, where I want to go, and then I’m making sure that my feet, my hips, my shoulders are all parallel left of that target.
So, alignment, the fundamentals are key, right? And then I know that I can just trust my body mechanics from there and the years of coaching and training that I’ve done. And how that translates to business and life is just being aware of what is that strong foundation that you need to set for yourself physically, mentally, and emotionally, and regularly checking in on that weekly in order to make sure that you are aligned in the direction where you want to go. So, I think that really does correlate with the mental gym that I’m always referring to of having that time every Sunday, Saturday. I recommend doing it on the weekend, where you can do that weekly audit of, “Okay. What were those goals and what were those intentions that I set out for myself this week? What went well? What didn’t go well? And then what do I need to adjust moving forward in order to continue to grow and compound the work that I am doing?”
So, I think that that’s really important on a weekly basis. And then every day I’m also encouraging all of my clients to check into that mental gym, to again, be clear on what are those needle moving tasks that I would consider to be non-negotiables that we need to complete by the end of the day, and how are we stacking our schedule in order to optimize our energy levels to really move the needle on those larger tasks that will build in the direction where we want to go, while also not dropping the ball with all the other things that we need to do mentally, emotionally, and with our family lives behind the scenes.
Brad Johnson: You know where my head goes a bit? First off, I’m a horrible golfer. I played football in college, and played my first round of golf, I think, after I graduated college. And also played baseball, and I just take a decent baseball swing, and that’s my golf swing, which is not good, I hear.
Marisa Messana: Oh no.
Brad Johnson: I know you have a boyfriend that’s a baseball player, so I don’t know if you’ve dealt with that with his friends or not. But anyway, so I’m going back to a golf story. I went out to Pebble Beach for one of my buddies’ 40th, and I should not have been on that course. Much too nice of a course for my golf game, but I have a horrible slice, and I’ve just learned how to play it. So, instead of my lining up parallel with where the fairway is, I go like a 45-degree left, and play this…
Marisa Messana: Oh gosh.
Brad Johnson: I know. I’m telling you. If you end up showing up at a Triad golf experience, we’ve got a lot of work to do.
Marisa Messana: Let’s get out of here.
Brad Johnson: So, I’m tilted like at a 45 left so that the slice makes its way back to the fairway, but where my head goes, and my friends really enjoy it. It’s entertaining to them. I could give Charles Barkley a run for his money when it comes to golf swings. But anyway, so where my head goes with what you just shared, you’ve got an alignment practice because obviously you want your body aligned with where you want the golf ball to go. And to me, that translates a lot to vision and business. The analogy I would make is like, number one, a lot of financial advisors don’t have a vision. So, that’s a lot of the work that Triad does is taking the vision out of the founder’s head, getting it on a piece of paper, so we can now instill that in the team, get the culture right, attract the right culture that fits that vision, all be rowing in the same direction.
But back to golf. I’m at a 45, and my golf swing’s screwed up, but if you don’t have a vision or the vision is pointed the wrong direction, you’re already like, how are you going to have any success? So, when it comes to that alignment and making sure you’re practicing alignment in your golf game, it translates to the golf game. It works in business too. You’ve worked with Cisco, you’ve worked with some very large organizations, JP Morgan. How much of that just translates straight back to vision before you even get in the trenches and start doing the work?
Marisa Messana: Yeah, totally. And that’s where I always encourage everybody to have their personal vision, and that’s where I’m working most often. It’s what is that personal vision, that personal version that is the best version of this individual? And then how can we create our structure and our schedule to align with your ideal vision, which ultimately then translates to the vision of the company, and maybe even surpasses that one day, depending on the culture of the business that you’re contributing to. So, yes, I mean, I think that that’s huge and I would always empower the leadership team to understand the importance and the genius that lies within each individual person, if you allow them to uncover whatever it is that those gifts are that they have and those interests and passions. And that’s going to quantum leap any productivity tools that you’re trying to use to cover up whatever they’re not uncovering by not doing this work.
Brad Johnson: So, what I’m taking from that is, and going back to the teams you’ve worked with, most of your work is working on the individual personal vision, which obviously you’ve got executive teams, so you’ve got the individuals, and then they have to work together as a team. So, you’re almost starting with, “Put your own oxygen mask on first before you worry about somebody else.” How is that translated?
Marisa Messana: Yeah, exactly. So, let me kind of rewind and explain. So, what happens is there are two verticals, right? And so, if I’m coming in the context of internal leadership development, we’ll have our first day, which is that leadership team offsite, where I’m sharing all of the overarching strategies of physically, mentally, emotionally what you need to do in order to create that best version of yourself. So, we’re getting everybody familiar with those concepts. And then after that kickoff event, then we’re transitioning into that one-on-one coaching where then I’m coming in and unpacking individually what it is exactly that they’re building towards and how we can optimize for that individual in order for them to better contribute to that collective vision.
And we’re doing that over the course of six weeks, six months, whatever that is, just to provide that support and accountability that they need to integrate those systems that we’re sharing on that first day because, I mean, you know how it is, right? A speaker comes in, everyone’s all fired up, and they forget it the next day. Okay. But that’s not what we’re here for. We’re here for true transformation and results. So, that’s where I can come in and sharing these overarching strategies. So, we’re all committed to that true north, and holding each other accountable, and we’re aware of what we’re building towards, but then individually we’re really integrating that. And then building collectively from there.
Brad Johnson: Well, what are the most common, obviously, don’t share any names here, but like, as you look at all of the high-level executives at, I mean, Fortune 500 type of companies, when you’re doing that one-on-one individual work, what are the most common things you see getting in the way of their best self or the mental blocks that you see come up most frequently?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. Totally. It’s the subconscious patterns of their past that are holding them back from being that version of themselves that they want to become. And they’re not really aware of that, that your subconscious actually leads to its driving 90% of the decisions that you’re making. So, until you’re aware of why you’re making those decisions in that way, you can’t unleash that next version of yourself, which is limitless and can produce beyond what you can imagine based off of the patterns of your past. So, I think creating that vision, and again, getting comfortable, uncomfortable of accepting that, owning that, trusting yourself, those are things that are difficult for people because, again, we’re conditioned from our past. We need to realize that in order to get different results, we may need to do something that we’ve never done.
And just accepting that, becoming comfortable by doing that, and that’s where it’s awesome to see other people that have done that, that can lead by example within the leadership team. So, where then even the team can work from the backwards up in also empowering them to live that type of life as well.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, here’s where the real work begins as an executive, and this is one of the things almost five years into entrepreneurship, I’ve had to learn. It’s you’ve got to get really uncomfortable hearing stuff that’s not fun to hear. So, my co-founder, Shawn and myself, both did a 360 review. And what was surprising? Like, I was like, “Oh boy, this might be painful.” And so, for those that aren’t familiar with the 360 review, you’re getting feedback anonymously on how you’re showing up. And surprisingly, I was like, “Nope, that checks out. That checks out. That checks out.” So, when you’re working with executives, there are different levels of self-awareness. Some people might be really self-aware and not care how they show up. Some people might be completely unaware, and it’s massive blind spots.
So, Marisa, obviously, when it comes to being a pro at anything, there’s a book by Carol Dweck called Mindset that talks about growth mindset versus fixed mindset. And I know preference, especially as a coach, you want to work with growth mindset people. I also know you have a program that makes it really fun, where you incorporate golf, have some fun as a team, and then how that translates into business. So, would you be cool with sharing kind of how that lays out as you dive into it?
Marisa Messana: Yes, totally. So, this is one of my favorite programs, and this is in the other vertical, which is more so when I’m using this program as a tool for business development with my clients. And so, they’re engaging their top partners, prospects, partners, whoever it is that they need to create more meaningful and memorable relationships. So, what we’re doing is that we’re kicking off with some type of golf component, but then we also have the growth component.
So, the golf component is going out onto the golf course. It could even just be an hour on the range if we’ve never played golf before. And then we’re transitioning into the growth-oriented discussions. And my favorite format is where we’re doing this, where I’m facilitating round table discussions over growth-oriented topics. So, this is really intellectually stimulating and it’s also allowing for me to share some of the challenges that I experienced as well as the solutions that I’ve created, where then those that are at the table then also feel comfortable sharing some of those challenges that they’ve experienced, where we’re creating this collective genius of all the rich experience that we have in the room, which is a super cool environment and really creates that memorable and meaningful experience that we need, especially with financial advisors and within the financial services industry, you’re not just going to sell people on a sale from having a Zoom conversation, right?
So, this is a way that we’re actually building true relationships and really getting to peel the onion back and understanding who are our clients and who is our leadership team, and do we genuinely align to work together in order to get better together, which ultimately, is the name of the game, right? So, this is a super rewarding format that I really enjoy and it leads to the retention and the referrals and really, the trusted relationships that we need in order to compound and grow better together over time.
Brad Johnson: And I just want to make sure because we’re covering a lot of ground on one conversation here. So, you’ve got one side of your business that is kind of corporate executive coaching, a lot of the mindset stuff from golf that you learned applying it to business. We’re really talking about another side of the business where you’ll go out and obviously, use your golf expertise to kind of apply it to business building to where kind of more client-style events. So, if I’m a financial advisor, just to be clear, and I’m like, hey. I need some golf help, obviously, we’ve already covered that one.
And number two, hey, I’ve got a lot of my clients that really enjoy golf and want to level up, you’re kind of creating a really cool experience where they can both be educated, learn, have fun. But also, it can be kind of that business building, relationship building that a lot of financial advisors are trying to do and obviously generate. Hey, I’d love to double my clients that love golf that are into stuff that I enjoy as well. And that’s an avenue where you’ve seen that work really well.
Marisa Messana: Yeah, totally. I mean, that’s exactly what it is that we’re doing and I’m always just getting very clear with my clients on what are those ideal objectives and outcomes that we need, and what’s the type of ambiance that we want to create, and then we’re going to curate an itinerary that directly nails those goals. So, sometimes, it is more fun, recreational entertainment. We’re telling stories, we’re giving golf tips. But sometimes, if it is a room of people that really do crave that growth-oriented discussion, okay, then we’re going to facilitate more of those meaningful conversations where we are unpacking some of those challenges in order to turn those into triumphs.
So, it’s really just creating this premium experience where we’re providing that wow factor to their clients and also differentiating themselves because, yeah, we go to these financial services conferences and there’s a lot of tactical things that we’re learning, but we never really have more of the growth-oriented discussion. So, it really acts as a pattern interrupt to stand out and differentiate yourselves that we’re not just business, we’re also life. And that’s really important as I know for you as well. So, it’s just a way of differentiating yourselves, really building those trusted relationships and also creating a community of growth-oriented individuals. This is huge, right?
Especially with AI, I mean, everything is becoming automated, but what is the one thing that we can’t replace? It’s human connection. So, how can we lean into that and provide opportunities for our clients to connect not only with the client and the leader on their team, but also the clients collectively, right? Like, you’re compounding your own relationships by introducing them to your book of clients. And then that network just continues to compound and grow with others that have this standard of excellence and that are growth oriented. So, it’s just this flywheel of impact that we’re creating that really just starts with some simple experience that we are sharing together.
Brad Johnson: Well, first off, being in finance 20-ish years now, seen a lot of golf events, always well attended. And the cool thing about a golf event, it’s almost built for referrals because you can fill a foursome. So, I’ve got two, maybe it’s a husband and wife that love to golf, or maybe it’s two clients that are golf buddies, and you say, hey, fill the foursome, invite a couple more that aren’t currently working with the firm. So, if you were going to give some tips of like here is how to throw, if you’re an advisor and you want to create a golf event that brings in referrals, kind of clones your favorite clients, what are like, these are the staples of an incredible golf event, or maybe your Marisa’s style of what an incredible golf event would look like?
Marisa Messana: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally, I mean, I think, again, I’m really curating every experience to be very intentional, so what are those end outcomes that we want to nail? And what’s the ambiance that we want to create? And then we’re going to work backwards from there. So, it’s always going to be different based on the type of client that you’re working with. So, I think what it comes down to is uncovering what are those true interests and passions of your clients, and then making sure that you’re providing experiences that align with those interests that they have. So, I mean, what you can do is take them out on the golf course casually to begin. Ask those intentional questions that will unpack and understand who they are as a human, not just what their financial goals are, but what do they care about, what are their drivers, what fires them up every day? And then how can we create an experience moving forward where this may be more structured, where we’re bringing in other clients, other referrals, whoever it may be to create a shared experience that aligns with those interests and passions that they have.
Brad Johnson: So, like, if we had a high-level agenda, I hear you. And it’s like, well, each one’s custom, which is awesome. That’s what everybody wants. But if you’re like, these are the non-negotiables, like we definitely need to hit the range, do some golf tip 101 as a group. I know everybody loves like, oh, Marisa was a former pro golfer. So, now, maybe you set up at a par three and you’re doing closest to the pin or something like that. And that would not be fun, by the way. You’re just crushing everybody, I bet. But what are some non-negotiables? Like, these are kind of the greatest hits if I’m doing a golf experience.
Marisa Messana: So, there’s always both, or typically, there’s both, the golf and the growth component. So, the golf component is either 18 holes, 9 holes, or a range, a range clinic for an hour, where we’re just providing golf instruction. And then the growth component can be a keynote if it’s a large group. It could be more of a workshop if the client wants it to be more interactive, or it could be more casual, which would be the round table discussions where we are unpacking any type of growth-oriented discussions, shared challenges, whatever is most relevant to those participants. So, those are typically the options, what we’re kind of plugging and playing, again, based off of whatever those objectives are.
Brad Johnson: Well, I like how you work do business, do life, and obviously, we’re all about that here.
Marisa Messana: Yes.
Brad Johnson: It sounds like you’re leading with the life side, which is the golf, and have fun and connect, build relationships, and then…
Marisa Messana: Yeah, exactly. The golf is a way to just kind of drop those barriers, right? Have a shared experience, get people comfortable being uncomfortable on the golf course because as we know, golf typically levels the playing field regardless of whether you’re a CEO or just starting up in the company. It’s a very neutralizer/equalizer for everybody because it is a humbling sport at times. So, again, it just leads as a great transition to then get a little bit vulnerable and then really unpack those meaningful conversations and discussions that we can have that lead to those trusted relationships.
Brad Johnson: Okay, if you were to guesstimate in your life to this point, how many hours do you think you’ve spent on a golf course?
Marisa Messana: Oh, my God.
Brad Johnson: Just throw a number out, just a random guess.
Marisa Messana: I mean, as a kid, my parents would drop me off at like, whatever time it was every summer and I’d be there practicing all day, every day with my brother. So, I probably spent more hours on the golf course than anywhere else, for sure. I don’t even know what to answer.
Brad Johnson: Is it half your life at this point, probably, I mean?
Marisa Messana: I mean, I was a range rat. So, I was one of those that loved practicing. And I remember there was one year, I was probably like 12 years old and I was like, oh, I can’t miss a day without going to the golf course. I remember…
Brad Johnson: At 12?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. I was pretty intense. I’ve always been pretty intense. If there’s one word to describe me, it’s intense. And I’ve learned how to manage that, right? Because as we all know, your biggest strength can also be a curse. So, as a kid, that’s how I was. It was like all or nothing. And now, I’ve learned how to reel it back and ramp up the RPMs when I need to, but also turn it down to the point that I think you made earlier with your aunt or your sister-in-law that was talking about that spectrum and just being able to manage yourself and be aware.
Brad Johnson: So, you compare to the general population, that’s 0.001% of hours on a golf course. What is it as, like, even as a guy that sucks at golf, there is a mystique, this magic about playing 18 with somebody. And one of the things I’ve seen in business, to your point, it’s a levelizer, it drops the guard, but what is it that, because you go to a baseball game, you get a suite, you’re there for nine innings, you’ve got plenty of time to connect and have relationships, same with the football game suite, but golf is just different. What makes golf different, as a connector sport, from all the others in your opinion?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. Oh, totally, I think it’s a shared challenge and that is such an eye-opening experience for you to see how do other people handle adversity. It’s like a Petri dish of 18 holes where you get to throw them in the ringer and see how they handle that. I mean, there was a quote that I heard, I don’t remember at what point it was in my career, but it says, true character shows in how you respond when things don’t go your way. And listen, when things are great, everyone’s great, right? But when things are not going so great, how do you handle those circumstances? And that is what defines your true character. And that is what uncovered, even within myself, where I was honest with myself and saying, ah, I don’t handle adversity that well. I think that’s an area where I need to lean into that.
And so, that literally led to the work that I’m doing today where now, I’m not afraid of challenge because I’ve shifted that identity where now, when I see a challenge coming my way, I’m like, oh, watch how I handle this, right, because I know that I’m going to become better from any adversity that comes my way. So, having a shared mentality of someone of that caliber is pretty impressive. And so, when you can uncover that on the golf course, that speaks volumes.
Brad Johnson: We were just in Maui for one of our experiences. And one of the things we were talking about, Jason Khalipa, I don’t know if you’ve met him, former CrossFit games champion. He’s obviously dealt with some adversity when you’re doing CrossFit at the level that he was. But he said one of the things he’s seen brings people together is shared suffering, right? And so, that form of that on the golf course, you’re seeing how people respond in, oh, hit a great shot. That’s easy. Oh, I’m in the bunker, three holes in a row. Okay, let’s see how adversity, how they show up. And it’s interesting because one of the things we say here a lot at Triad is leaders are calm and confident. And that’s in all conditions, right? And so, what you’re saying is you automatically see that play out on the golf course no matter what, and you’re kind of, here’s what people are made of and ups and downs and it’s kind of this connecting tissue that’s created.
Marisa Messana: Yeah, yeah.
Brad Johnson: Have you ever been playing around and you’re like, oh, yeah, this round just kind of, I’m not hanging out with this person anymore just because of how that stuff’s showing up, or on the flip side, wow, they’re so calm, they’re so positive, even when things are going so bad, have you seen that play out in your life?
Marisa Messana: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve seen both sides of the spectrum. And listen, we’re humans, right? Like, we’re not robots. So, of course, we’re going to get upset if something goes south, but how quickly, do you bounce back from that adversity? And how do you respond three holes later? Are you still carrying the past into your future? And listen, there are accomplished people that can still throw a fit on the golf course. So, I’m not saying that it’s a black or white, but it is, again, a great Petri dish to just have data points, right, and understand those patterns and how important pattern recognition is, because I do believe that true character does show over time, right? So, are you going into business with this person? And is this the type of person that you would like to do business with?
Brad Johnson: Yeah, you’re making me think because I’m looking at like Tiger, obviously, everybody sees him as one of the goats, if not the goat of pro golf. He was pretty emotional on the course, like, he hits a big shot, he got the big tiger fist pump. Then you look at Scottie Scheffler right now, he’s pretty stoic all the way across.
Marisa Messana: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, do you think that’s just, hey, that worked for Tiger, so go with it? This works for Scottie. Like, how much of the balance is there?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. No, totally. Listen, I think that there is value in releasing that anger, releasing the emotion. But did Tiger compound that mistake? No. That’s going to drive him to then recover even better on the next one. And that’s what differentiates him from those competitors that weren’t at his caliber. So, I understand the value of, again, releasing the emotion, but is that one mistake going to lead to future mistakes? Is it going to compound? Is it going to lead to whatever, whoever it is that you’re playing with now becomes horrible company for the rest of the back nine? Those are more of the data points that I’m looking for that are uncovered through golf.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. They say like some of the best golfers have the shortest memories, right? Like, pro, all like quarterbacks in the NFL, you throw a pick, better come back next series and just forget about it and go out and execute. I think that’s probably…
Marisa Messana: And I also want to acknowledge shared victory is also something that you experience on the golf course. We don’t always have to, right? Like, there’s something to be said that on the golf course, if you win together, hell, yeah, that’s fine. So, yes, it does uncover those challenging situations, but it also does provide a platform for you to have shared triumph, which is very rewarding as well.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. On that note, some of my favorite golfers to golf with, and I don’t play that much, but they’re so positive and like, you hit one good shot out of every seven, they’re like, great shot, man. And it’s like, thanks, I’m glad you didn’t say anything about the other six, but you see almost like this inner, what a person’s made of come out on the golf course.
Marisa Messana: Totally, yeah, yeah. And that’s what I wanted to acknowledge as well. It’s not always the adversity, it’s also how they handle it. Are they that type of person that is going to say, good shot? Are they going to go rake the bunker for you after? Are they showing those small deeds of kindness that are really great data points to understand about a person? And again, we can uncover that through golf.
Brad Johnson: Okay, so you just gave a few tips there. So, if I’m playing around with a client or a prospective client I really want to connect with, obviously, we’re saying positive things. It’s golf etiquette, or maybe, we’re raking the bunker when they don’t ask. What would be other things you’re like, hey, these are things you should do if you really want to connect with somebody on a golf course? Do you have some?
Marisa Messana: Well, yeah, I mean, I think just showing great etiquette is getting the flag, right? If you’re always the one that’s going to pick up the flag after everyone finishes putting, yeah, there’s something to be said for that. I make sure that it’s a shared experience where everyone is always contributing and making sure they’re getting the flag. So, I mean, it’s really just good etiquette and like you said, raking the bunker. That’s another really kind act or gesture that if someone does that, it’s like, oh, that’s a good dude, you know? So, those are just small things that again, I think are good data points too, to take note of.
Brad Johnson: Okay, so when you’re on the pros because I mean, they’re like– actually, there’s golf etiquette that’s like, hey, you should do this. And then in pros, I feel like you absolutely have to do it or it might be a penalty or something. Okay, so what’s the professional etiquette when it comes to when somebody is putting, where should you stand? Should you be behind them, out of their vision? Should you be to the side? Does it matter?
Marisa Messana: Yeah. You should never stand behind somebody. You should always be out, I guess, or to be perpendicular to them because it could be distracting if you’re in their eye line, either through the hole or behind them.
Brad Johnson: Okay. And then what about driving? Same thing, when you’re on the tee box?
Marisa Messana: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, you’re always just going to be out of their line of vision is proper etiquette.
Marisa Messana: Yes.
Brad Johnson: Got it.
Marisa Messana: Exactly.
Brad Johnson: Okay. Are there any other things, as you became a pro, you’re like, oh, I had to learn this shoot, I didn’t know, this is like professional golf etiquette?
Marisa Messana: No. I think, no, I mean at that point, you’ve been playing golf your whole life, so there’s nothing really crazy that goes from being an amateur golfer to becoming a professional golfer. It’s more so the transition from being a beginner golfer to then becoming either a recreational or a corporate golfer that you need to be mindful of the etiquette. So, one thing that is important is to never step in the line between the person’s ball and the flag once they’re on the green. So, that’s very important and shows good etiquette as well.
Brad Johnson: Is that just respect, or could that actually jack somebody’s putt up? Like, if you…
Marisa Messana: Oh yeah, it could jack somebody’s putt up, because if you have your footprint in their line, it could hit the grass funny and then go offline. Totally, yeah.
Brad Johnson: Is it allowed? Sorry, now, I’m just being a nerd when it comes to golf. Is it allowed, like you can’t brush the green between the putt?
Marisa Messana: That changed.
Brad Johnson: Oh, it did, okay.
Marisa Messana: So, that rule changed, yeah. Earlier in my career, you were not able to do that, and then they changed the role. And honestly, every few years they’re changing the role. So, you have to continually stay updated on little intricacies like that.
Brad Johnson: So, you can actually, if I’m on the green and you see, hey, there’s a little pebble or twig or something, you can brush it off, where back in the day, you couldn’t even adjust it at all?
Marisa Messana: It depends if it was attached to the grass. If it was a pebble, you can remove a pebble. If it was a piece of grass that you had to break off of the ground, you weren’t allowed to do that.
Brad Johnson: Interesting. So many intricacies when it comes to playing games at the highest level. What are other common things you see beginner golfers mess up? I’m just thinking like, I’m now hosting a party with my clients. It’s like, if you order a nice bottle of wine off the menu, you don’t want to look like an idiot, right? What are common things you see, like beginners mess up and they just didn’t know any better when they’re like trying to do golf the right way? Don’t drive on the green, I’ve got that one. If you’re on a car, what other things do you see often?
Marisa Messana: Oh, man, it’s harder if I’m going to see it and then call it out rather than just off the top of my head. I mean, it’s always standing behind somebody when they’re hitting and just staying out of the line of their ball in the target. Not stepping over or not stepping on someone’s line once they’re on the green. Oh, and I guess I would say the person who’s farthest away has honors. So, whoever is farthest away from the hole goes first, and that way, you know and then keep because you don’t want– oh, the other thing, sorry, that was kind of messy.
Brad Johnson: No, it’s all good. It’s all good. Just rapid fire them.
Marisa Messana: So, let’s rewind there. So, it’s whoever is farthest away from the hole is the one who goes next. And then another rule of thumb that’s important to keep in mind is whoever had the best score on the prior hole tees off first on the next tee box. So, that’s another thing to keep in mind.
Brad Johnson: The one I see all the time is everybody, like sometimes, especially if you’re spraying balls all over the place, everybody’s kind of in their own little world and you see the one I’ve used where it’s like the furthest one back is supposed to hit where people are just like hit from all over the place.
Marisa Messana: I will recommend, although whoever is farthest away is supposed to go first, if you agree as a group collectively in the beginning of the round, hey, we’re just going to play ready golf, then you’re golden and you won’t be perceived as rude. But there are some traditional golfers where if you just go ahead and tee off and you’re just on your own rules, they will take offense to that. However, communication is key, whether it’s in golf or in life. Just communicate the ground rules and then you’re golden.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Here’s what we’re doing. We’re not teeing the ball up when nobody’s looking, the standard favorite cheater when nobody’s looking. Okay, so last question, then we’ll get to the final question. This has been a lot of fun, Marisa, so I really appreciate it. Okay, so back to connecting on the golf course, sometimes people make little fun bets, maybe they gamble, not on the pros, obviously, but just buddy golf. What is your favorite golf game to play when you’re out with friends that’s fun and like leads connection? It doesn’t have to be dollars changing hands, but what’s your favorite golf game that connects everybody and it’s a good time?
Marisa Messana: That’s so funny. So, transparently, I am the worst at sports betting, so I delegate that to somebody else on my team. As I mentioned, I stay in my lane, so I consider my zone of genius asking intentional questions and hitting good golf shots. And then I delegate the stakes elsewhere.
Brad Johnson: So, it’s like whatever game they’re playing, you’re just like, I’m going to golf, you keep track of it and I’ll just have fun.
Marisa Messana: Absolutely, yeah. You keep the scorecard. If you’re playing golf, whatever game you want to play, I’ll just hit the shots and then we’ll go from there. And I ask the intentional questions that gets everybody connected through 20 questions with Marisa is what we call it.
Brad Johnson: Okay, so what’s this? This is like a question, a hole where you’re just going? Is that what you do?
Marisa Messana: No. I mean, it’s not really structured. Of course, you kind of read the room, right? Some people do really enjoy those conversations and some people are like, listen, I’m a competitor. I’m here to play golf and I don’t want to talk about all these deep conversations about your life. So, you got to know your audience. However, for those that are more interested in those thought-provoking conversations, hell, yeah, you can unpack some really great stories about a human by asking intentional questions over the course of the round.
I remember just with a client event a few weeks ago, after the round, I learned such a cool life story about this guy, and his coworker was like, “Wait, you know that all that happened?” I’m like, “Yeah, we got into it.” It was the coolest round of golf, understanding what he came from and the person that he’s become now, which I would’ve never known that if I was just sitting across a desk from him or even at a dinner party. These types of conversations aren’t really going to come up when you have a small 45-minute container.
But when you have four hours to have fun with someone, see how they handle adversity, and then you ask a question that’s correlated with their past experience, then you see who they really are and why they’re such an incredible human and why you want to work with them, and then help champion them towards whatever goals it is that they’re building towards.
Brad Johnson: Very cool. Well, it’s funny, we do that at our family dinner table where we’ll do table topics. It’s like these little cards and you can ask questions.
Marisa Messana: So good, yes.
Brad Johnson: So, yeah, 100%. Great questions to make. Oh, was it? Table topics, was what did it for you?
Marisa Messana: Yes, my mom. My mom…
Brad Johnson: There we go. That’s awesome. The Messana family dinner table, you were just ripping into the table topics. Well, the Johnsons have that in common with you.
Marisa Messana: I love that. I appreciate that a lot.
Brad Johnson: Well, cool. Well, that’s a great transition to my final question here. You’ve brought it up a handful of times. Basically, this show is about the integration of both doing business, doing life, not sacrificing one for the other, and that’s what Triad is all about, both for our members, for our internal team. You’ve talked a lot about that with your own journey. I’m just curious, I’d love to hear Marisa’s definition of what does Do Business, Do Life mean to you.
Marisa Messana: Oh, yeah, I mean, it resonates with me so deeply, again, because on the golf course, yeah, I played with tons of executives throughout the course of my career that I really admired from professionally, what they’ve been able to accomplish. But when I heard about their personal lives and what was happening behind the scenes, there was a lot of stories of dysfunction. And so, I was adamant that I wanted to be as proud of myself internally as I looked externally, which ultimately led me to create this business and all the systems that I have now implemented in my life today.
And my mission ultimately is creating and building more top performers of top character. So, it’s not mutually exclusive. You don’t have to compromise your life and yourself personally in order to have that business success. So, I really appreciate that you are leading that mantra as well, as I think that it’s a really important mission that I’m all on board to continue to drive together.
Brad Johnson: Well, thank you so much for the time, Marisa. It was great. We got some fun golf stories. We got some great business lessons. Got some good laughs. So, great to connect virtually. Look forward to hopefully in the future doing it personally, so.
Marisa Messana: Awesome.
Brad Johnson: Who knows, maybe you’re the one that can fix my golf swing someday.
Marisa Messana: Oh, let’s do it. I’m ready to dive in. Thank you so much for having me. It’s a lot of fun. Okay, we’ll talk soon.
Brad Johnson: Bye.
Marisa Messana: Bye.
