Brad Johnson: Welcome back to another episode of Do Business. Do Life. Have Marcus Sheridan here with us today. Welcome to the show, Marcus.
Marcus Sheridan: It’s going to be a good show, Brad. I got that feeling.
Brad Johnson: I’ve got it too, man. I’ve already got some pool tips before we hit record, so life is good. Free consulting, so appreciate that. But, yeah, let’s just dive in, man. So, those that aren’t super familiar with you, which I don’t think there’s a lot these days, but one of the things as I got to know you and your story, it’s really interesting how you took the whole concept of customers coming to you in a sales process. And at the time that you wrote your first book, They Ask, You Answer, which was really your methodology of how you flip that upside down. You were running a pool company and you were running a pool company during a really tough time period, which was right on the back end of the 2008 recession, when people weren’t just throwing a bunch of money around probably for pools and other extravagant spends.
But you grew the largest pool company, I believe in the world, the most visited pool website in the world, using a methodology where they almost came to you ready to buy versus coming to you, “Hey, should I buy a pool or what pool should I put in?” So, how’d you do it?
Marcus Sheridan: You know the phrase, “Hard times create strong men and women,” right? It’s like hard times also create much better marketing because instead of doing it the way we’ve always done it, we say, “To your point, let’s flip it on its head. Let’s do it differently. You only live once.” That’s why always you see the most innovation during difficult economic times with businesses. And you saw a lot of that with COVID too with financial advisors, right? Because I remember, and this actually happened to me. During COVID, this guy that owns a firm and, hopefully, you won’t take this the wrong way, Brad, but this is literally what he says to me. He said, “Marcus, we finally realized that you don’t have to be on a golf course to close a deal.”
And it’s interesting that really puts like it surmises so much of what can happen if you build a known and trusted brand. And that’s what we did during the economic crash of 2008. I started this pool company in 2001. Things were going okay. We had the crash of 2008. We looked like we were going to file bankruptcy. I thought I was going to lose my home. That’s when we threw caution to the wind. I really started to lean into the changing buyer, and what I heard in my mind was, “Okay, if I just obsess over my buyer’s questions, worries, fears, issues, concerns, and I’m willing to address those online, through text, through video, et cetera, maybe I’ll save my business.” So, I told my business partners, I said, “This is what we’re going to do. We’re going to become like the Wikipedia of pools.”
And I brainstormed every question I’d ever been asked, and I addressed every one. And this ended up like being very innovative, as we’ll talk about, because we leaned into stuff that nobody had ever talked about before. And we became the most trafficked swimming pool website in the world. The company exploded, changed my entire life. Here we are today, right? And there’s a lot of stuff that happened in between here and there. But yes, up to that point, everything worked like, okay, somebody reaches out to you through traditional advertising, through traditional marketing, and you go out to the house, and then that’s where the trust really starts, in the home. I’m like, “Well, that’s dumb. It doesn’t have to be that way.”
And studies show that the average buyer today is 80% through the buyer’s journey anyway by the time they even reach out to a company. There’s another stat that’s wild. 75% of all buyers say they would prefer to have a seller-free sales experience. So, what does this mean? It doesn’t mean that we hate salespeople. It just means we don’t want to talk to one until we’re confident, comfortable, and we feel like we’re not going to make a mistake. What makes us feel like we’re not going to make a mistake? Well, we’ve got to be educated, and the question becomes, where are they going to get that education? Is it going to come from you? Or is it going to come from somebody else? Is it going to come from some third party? Is it going to come from a competitor?
And my mindset when it comes to businesses, I want it to come from me. I want them to learn everything from me. I have that choice. That’s why I don’t believe in ignoring any question, even if no one in our industry has ever addressed that before.
Brad Johnson: Well, all of that applies to our world of finance. And I’m guessing as I look at the similarities, we’re literally, as I said before we hit record, our family right now is in the process of figuring out what sort of pool we want to put into the new home we just moved into. It’s overwhelming. There’s lots of options. It’s kind of opaque. There’s not a ton of great information out there, although we haven’t visited your website yet, so assuming we probably need to go hit that up. But the world of finance, same thing, it’s overwhelming. Where do I go to get accurate information?
So, let’s go to like those taboo sort of questions that probably a lot of financial advisors listening to this, “Oh, I don’t want to answer that one. That could get me in trouble as far as like fees or surrender charges on products.” What’s the pool version of that? And how did you start to address that to where they showed up, and there’s like, “Here’s an honest guy that’s just shooting me straight”?
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah. Well, what I realized early on as a pool guy and what I’ve since found by now working with literally thousands of companies around the globe, I’ve got incredible amounts of data. Today, I’ve got a coaching company that helps organizations do this system that’s known today as endless customers. I’ve got also a sales and leadership company. And so, anything I’m saying today is based on not just my own personal experience, based on a lot of data. And there’s essentially five subjects that buyers research before they reach out to a company. And so, even if somebody’s thinking about reaching out to an advisor, financial advisor, let’s say, okay, is it okay if I use that phrase just for the ease of our conversations, call it a financial advisor?
So, there are five subjects that they want to understand before they engage a company. What are they? And anybody listening to this will say, “Yep, that’s me. I do that every single day.” Number one, we want to understand costs, budgets, fees, et cetera. That’s number one. Number two, we want to understand problems/negatives, issues, worries, fears, like what could go wrong? What could go wrong? Because when we’re serious about buying something, we want to know, “What can go wrong?” Number three, comparisons. We love to compare stuff online. Number four, reviews. We love reviews. To think about reviews, we want to know the good, the bad, and the ugly. Not just positive reviews, but we want all the sides.
And then number five, best, most top. Think about how many times you’ve gone online, if you’re listening to this right now, and you’ve searched best plus another phrase or top or most plus another phrase. These are things that we do. So, cost, problems, comparisons, reviews, and best. That’s what’s known as the big five. Buyers and consumers, they’re obsessed with them. Businesses are afraid to talk about them for a variety of reasons. Financial advisors, it gets worse because we make excuses as to why we can’t talk about them, things like, “Well, I’ve got compliance issues, and so therefore I’m not allowed to do that.” The issue that you have to understand is there’s a very big difference between necessarily answering every question and addressing every question.
You can address every question. You just can’t answer it necessarily if you have let’s just call it compliance issues. You might not be able to answer every question, but you can address it. And oftentimes in spaces where there is compliance, he or she who addresses it wins. So, of course, I’m sure that’s what we’re going to discuss further here.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense because in all sales it’s like, “What’s the objection that’s in your customer’s mind?” And if you can address that before it comes out as an objection, there’s trust built. And to your point, I might not be able to have a general post or video on a website that addresses all the scenarios out there because everybody’s different. They’re an individual, so that might require I need to come in and meet with you face to face to understand your situation, which is obviously how finance works, compliance, suitability. But what you’re saying is don’t pretend like the question’s not out there. You still need to address it, maybe not fully answer it, because everybody’s a bit different. Is that fair? Or you have a different take on that?
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah. Well, it’s just one of those things where it is your job to obsess over what you’re hearing every single day from people and say, “Okay, am I going to be addressing that? Are they going to learn that from me, or are they going to learn that from someone else?” If they learn it from you, now there’s a much greater chance, of course, that they’re going to feel that relationship of trust with you long before you ever meet. I mean, and the fact is if I’m a financial advisor, especially, if the first time someone ever hears my voice and sees my face is when they’re shaking my hand, I have completely, utterly, and totally failed that individual because by the time we meet, they should feel like they know me, they’ve heard me, they have learned from me, we’ve established a relationship of trust.
And like literally what they’re saying to me when we shake the hand for the first time is we’re like, “Wow, you’re taller than I thought you would be on camera,” or whatever. Literally, it’s like, “You’re exactly like I thought you would be, Marcus, from all the videos that I’ve watched.” That’s the type of stuff that you should be hearing. If you’re not hearing that, shame on you.
Brad Johnson: Let’s go back to the pool company. So, was it 2009-ish when you started with kind of the concept of, “Hey, we’re going to get ahead of these questions”? What year was that?
Marcus Sheridan: Yes. March of 2009 is when we started what today is known as They Ask, You Answer.
Brad Johnson: Okay, cool. And so, I’m going to assume you didn’t just post your first video and then all of the customers started pouring in. Give me the journey, the build, because I think that’s one thing that unfortunately gets in the way of a lot of advisors like, “Man, this is work. I’ve got to consistently put in the reps to build.” And it’s kind of more the long-term game than the short-term instant win. So, how did that play out?
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah. I mean, this coincides with what’s known as the Law of the Harvest, right? If you want to reap the harvest, you have to constantly be planting the seed and then nourishing the crop, and then protecting the crop, then eventually, there’s going to be a harvest. There’s a reason why most people could never be a farmer because they’re not patient enough to experience, like to go through the process of, “Hey, we have produced this harvest. I just want to go to the store.” The problem is when it comes to marketing, you can’t really just go to the store. Going to the store means I can throw a bunch of money maybe at like Google Ads, and hopefully some of that will work, but that’s not going to build a known and trusted brand where you get to experience a massive harvest long term that is built to last.
And so, it doesn’t happen overnight. What I did is I sat down and I brainstormed every single question I’d ever received as a pool guy, and one by one I started addressing them with text and with video. And when I did the first brainstorm, it was over 100 questions. But I’ve been selling pools for like six, seven years. It’s easy to do, and I’m not aloof to what people want to know. Now, as I started producing this content, then I started to notice there were certain patterns as to what resonated the most, what drew the most attention, and what people were really watching or viewing, whether it was YouTube or whether it was social, or whether it was online. That’s the big five there. That’s the big five.
And the big five is such a big part of like if you want to become the most known and trusted brand, and in my most recent book, Endless Customers, I talk about just really four pillars to becoming a known and trusted brand in your market, the most known and trusted brand. First two are really similar. Number one is you got to be willing to say online what others aren’t willing to say. And number two, you got to be willing to show what others aren’t willing to show with video. So, let’s just be hypothetical for a second, if we could, Brad, hopefully, to start with you.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, let’s do it.
Marcus Sheridan: Let’s look at cost questions for a second. Like, if I’m looking for a financial advisor, there’s a certain series of cost questions that somebody might have. Can you think of what some of those are? And I might fill in some blanks for you, but what would you say some of them are if you are online right now and you’re trying to find, you’re like, “I need to work with a financial advisor. Yeah, I’ve had a couple of recommendations from friends, but I just want to like learn about this,” what are some of the questions you have about cost? Let’s just start right there.
Brad Johnson: I think the target demographic of most of the advisors that Triad works with are pre-retirees and retirees. So, they’ve already accumulated a nest egg, typically. So, it’s typically, “Hey, what’s your fee structure? What’s the annualized cost?”
Marcus Sheridan: Major one. All right.
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Marcus Sheridan: What is your fee structure? Okay, that’s a huge one. What else?
Brad Johnson: “How do you get paid?” would maybe be even a more simple version of that because there are different flavors of advisors.
Marcus Sheridan: So, how does a financial advisor get paid? How does a financial advisor make money? Good. All right.
Brad Johnson: I think for more of the product side, because there’s the asset management side, which is fee-based, there’s the insurance side, which is commission-based. So, I think on the commission-based side, it’s a little more opaque like, “Hey, I bought this annuity.” I bought this life insurance policy. How do you get paid there?” So, it’s like not understanding the compensation models as well, I think is fair.
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah. All these are great. A couple of others that you might just think about. You might say, “Are financial advisors worth the money?” Now, that one is great because it’s a very buyer-consumer-esque question, which, by the way, the answer to that is not always. Here’s when they are, here’s when they’re not, because it’s not a blanket, yes. And the problem is a lot of financial advisors would want to answer that as a, “Yes, of course they’re worth the money. Here’s the reason why.” But that’s not what attracts you to the consumer. That’s not what makes them flinch. That’s not what makes them say, “Huh, what? I kind of like this guy.”
Brad Johnson: Well, just by you saying that, Marcus, “Hey, are financial advisors worth the money?” Not always.
Marcus Sheridan: Correct.
Brad Johnson: That’s a scratch in the record, “Wait, I didn’t expect a financial advisor to actually say that they’re not always worth the money.”
Marcus Sheridan: That’s exactly right. Now, there’s other ways to do this too. So, there’s more generic raise. Well, like somebody might say, how much should I expect to pay for retirement planning? So, they might not be thinking financial advisor, but they’re thinking about retirement planning. So, there’s a bunch of questions surrounding retirement planning that is also cost-based. What’s the difference in cost between a fiduciary and a non-fiduciary advisor? Another question that you might have. It’s like there is a ton of these types of questions, and the problem is we oftentimes assume that people just naturally understand them. And so, over the course of the years with the thousands of companies that my companies have worked with, we’ve seen over and over again that the number one traffic lead and ultimately sales producing content generally has to do with cost.
And the thing about it is, you don’t need to say necessarily exactly what your fees are or exactly what you charge. Maybe you do, maybe you don’t. But what’s important is that you teach the industry. For example, what drives costs up? What drives costs down? Why are some companies or advisors more expensive? Or why do they charge more? Why are some less expensive? And then roughly where do you fall within all of this? So, 80% of the explanation is about the industry. 20% is about you and your company, and the way you work. See, this is a simple way that it should be done. Now, it doesn’t stop there, though, if I may, Brad, because if you really would want to become that trusted voice, you want to create interactive tools essentially that allow them to get even more of this information.
So, I shared that stat earlier that 75% of all buyers would prefer to have a seller-free sales experience, right? Well, as part of that, what that means is they want more control, and control comes in many forms, but one thing that you can do to give people more control is through self-service tools that you can put online, especially on your website. Now, there are different types of self-service tools, and I talk about these a lot in endless customers, but one example of a self-service tool is a pricing estimator, or in this case, you could have a fee estimator. So, in other words, and almost nobody does this, but imagine like if you had some type of fee estimator tool that was on your website, and it broke down the different fees that you pay for the different types of financial advisors.
That’s really, really helpful. That makes somebody say, “Huh, that’s really, really interesting,” right? And there are other types of like just general pricing and cost calculators and reg calculators, but also gains calculators that you could have, that you could put on your site, that would help people have interactive experiences. So, this is the type of thing that the more interaction somebody has with your tools that you’ve built, the more the sunk cost fallacy, which means they’ve invested more time working with you and your stuff, which means now they’re trying to find a way to work with you and for you.
One other thing I want to say about this too, just while I’m thinking about it, every financial advisor on their website should say, “Who we are not a good fit for.” You want to talk about the flinch. That makes me immediately lean in, who we are not a good fit for. So, for example, if I was coming to you, Brad, and I said, “Who would you say you are not a good fit for in terms of what’s the opposite or a non-ideal client for you?” In a non-snarky way, who’s not an ideal fit?
Brad Johnson: So, for Triad, so our customers would be financial advisors. What’s crazy is I literally had this conversation yesterday. I said, “Hey, you should not join Triad if you’re not interested in building a business bigger than you.”
Marcus Sheridan: Okay. If you don’t want to scale and you don’t want to have many other advisors working for you, well, then Triad is not going to be your best fit, correct?
Brad Johnson: Correct.
Marcus Sheridan: Right. Now, do you verbalize that well on the Triad website right now?
Brad Johnson: You know, as I think about it, it could be better. I’m sure it’s sprinkled on there somewhere. It’s sprinkled through the podcasts and the different videos we put out, but it’s probably not black and white.
Marcus Sheridan: Correct. Sprinkle doesn’t count, right? When it comes to messaging, when it comes to brand and content, sprinkling doesn’t count. Like, I’ll ask people, “So, do you talk about fees at all?” “Yeah. Yeah. We kind of talk about that.” There’s no ‘kind of’ here. It’s like we’re explicit about it. We talk about it.
Brad Johnson: It’s like let’s talk about fees today, that’s like needs to be that straight up.
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah. But when it comes to fees, again, it’s like don’t assume that everybody understands how fees work with financial advisors. Say, “Within the financial advisor space, here’s the different types of fees that you’re going to see. Here’s the pros and the cons to each one. Here’s why you might be a good fit for some and not a good fit for others. Here’s what we’ve chosen at Johnson Inc. and here’s the reason why we have that fee structure.” Now, that is powerful. If you’re too embarrassed to talk about that, well, then you need to change your fee structure.
Brad Johnson: That’s fair. So, there’s the fee and then there’s the value. So, if you’re worried about your fees, yeah, it’s like maybe your value’s not high enough to charge that fee.
Marcus Sheridan: That’s right. When you are talking about fees, you have to be talking about value at the same time. So, it’s no different than, after you explain the different types of fees in the industry, you might say, “Now, here’s the fees that we charge.” And you might say to yourself, “That seems high. That would affect my returns.” Let’s look at what this might look like over the course of a lifetime of you being a client. And then you might say, “Here’s five actual clients. We’ve removed all names here where we show where they started, what their fees have been, and how much their net worth has increased since they were working with us.” Now, that type of transparency makes me say, “I’m feeling this company here. I’m loving it.” I’m going to give you a silly example that’s in a completely different industry, but I recently experienced it.
Over the years, I’ve worked with different Google Ad companies. Maybe you have too, Brad. And for the first time, I’ve had this Google Ad company that I recently hired from one of my organizations. And what they do is at the end of each month, they listen to every single phone call that came in from Google Ads. They qualify if it was a real lead or not, they give you that report, and they say, “Here’s the true number of qualified leads that we found, even though this is the number of phone calls and these are what we consider to be real. Do you agree?” And I was like, “Holy cow,” because everybody else was just like, “We got you 21 phone calls.”
They were like, “You got 21 phone calls. That doesn’t matter. We are counting 13 real leads. Do you agree?” That to me said, “I love this company,” because they’re showing the moles, right? Like, they’re showing the thing, like the others don’t want to talk about, they want to ignore. Can you do that? That’s how you become a known and trusted brand.
Brad Johnson: All right. There’s a couple of different paths I want to go here. Before we get too far removed from your journey on the pool company, can you give me the before and after? Like, from what I remember reading in your book, and it’s been a few years back, basically, in the pool company, people were showing up. You were having to do house calls. They’re like, “Should I do salt water? Should I do chlorine? Should I do concrete? Should I do vinyl?” And they were peppering you with all of these different options and questions. And then half the time you do a quote and they’re not even a buyer, and you’re wasting your own time. So, then you flipped it to They Ask, You Answer.
So, now all questions are kind of answered before you do a house call. And there’s already this trust built as we’ve talked all about so far in this conversation. So, what was the before and after like before this was what we were dealing with, after we kind of reversed the customer process where they were ready to buy when they showed up?
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah. I mean, so there was the marketing front and there was the sales front. From a marketing front, I mean, we were spending hundreds of thousands on a variety of different marketing platforms hoping to generate more leads. And then I realized that we could attract these to us if we were just willing to abide by the law of the harvest, right? And if we were willing to plant the seed and put the best content out there, and address these questions that nobody else was willing to address. Now, not only did we start to see a lot more traffic and certainly a lot more leads, ultimately, we started seeing a lot more sales because our conversations became very different. Our average time in the home went way down because it was way less time answering questions that were redundant.
We learned early on that if somebody asked us basic questions in the home, there’s a good chance they weren’t buying. So, for example, if I got to a home, Brad, and they said, “Could you help me understand the difference between a fiberglass, a concrete, and a vinyl liner pool?” I was probably not going to sell the pool that night because they were still not quite there. Now, again, this is one of those things where this principle applies to everybody. There are certain questions right now if I was talking to a financial advisor. I said, “What are some of the questions that you get from a potential client where you immediately tell yourself, ‘Oh, geez, I can see they’re not ready. They’re not going to be right for me, or they’re just not going to be a good fit,’ I guarantee you, everyone has answers to that.”
So, those are the ones that you want to eliminate. And one of the things that we found was, because I did a study after a couple of years, and I researched all the people that had filled out a form and said, “I want to get a quote. What was the difference between the ones that bought and didn’t buy?” And what I found was the ones that bought, on average, read 30 or more pages of the website. If they read 30 or more pages of the website, the closing rates were about 80%. If they read less than 30 pages, closing rates were about 25%, which is industry average at that point. So, I said, “Oh my goodness, all I got to do is get somebody to read essentially 30 pieces of our content, and they’re going to buy 80% of the time.”
So, now, Brad, instead of you calling me and saying, “Marcus, hey, I’m checking out your website. Could you come out to my house this Friday and give me a quote for a new pool?” I’d say to you, if you said, “Marcus, can you come out to my house, give me a quote for a pool?” I’d say, “Brad, I’d love to come out to your house, but you’re getting ready to spend a lot of money, and if you’re going to spend a lot of money on this new pool, I know you don’t want to make any mistakes. And so, I have to make sure you don’t make any mistakes, here’s what we’re going to do. Now, the first thing I’m going to send you, Brad, is an email, as we’re talking on the phone right now. I’m going to send you a video.
This video shows you the entire process of a pool getting installed in your backyard. You’re going to see the excavation, you’re going to see the install, you’re going to see the patio going around it. You’re going to see the cleanup, the groundwork, the whole nine. And this way, when I come out to your house on Friday, you’re not going to say, ‘So, Marcus, what does this process look like?’ You’re already going to know. Now, that just saved me about 20 to 30 minutes on the sales appointment, by the way. Now the second thing I’m going to send you, Brad, as we’re having this conversation, is what is essentially a buyer’s guide that answers all these major questions that you should have about pools, but maybe you haven’t thought about them yet, or maybe you haven’t been able to find answers.
Like, should I get a heater? What’s the best type of heater? Should it be gas? Should it be electric? Should it heat and cool my water? Should I get a cover? What’s the best type of cover? Should it be mesh? Should it be solid? Should it be automatic? Should it be solar? Now, this guide’s a little bit long. It’s about 30 pages, but I promise it’ll be well worth your time. So, Brad, will you take the time to review this guide and watch this video before our appointment on Friday?” And now, over 90% of the time, you say, “Sure,” at which point, I know if you do your homework, you’re going to buy 80% of the time because you have now consumed so much of our content that you’re just like, “These are my guys. These are the only ones I want to… It’s like everything I’ve ever learned about pools, I learned from Marcus.”
That’s what you want when it comes to, as a financial advisor, you want the person that’s like, “Everything I’ve ever learned about like investing or like retirement planning or any of this, I learned from you, from watching your stuff. It is so stinking helpful. I feel like I know you already.” That’s the goal, and that’s what was happening to me. People were saying to me, “I feel like I know you.” After we started to get really serious about video, which everybody should, especially in a business where you’re like, “Oh, it’s all about the human connection being an advisor.” Yeah, I agree. Video, hardcore video. I had situations where one time, I’ll never forget it, Brad, I walked up on somebody’s house. This is when I was still selling pools.
This is now it’s been more than 15 years, but I walked to somebody’s house, knocked on the door, and I heard a kid behind the door say, “Mom, dad, Marcus from the video is here.” Now, think about that for a second. How hard do you think that sale was? It was not hard. I walk in, they recognize me like a family member. The kids think I’m a movie star, right? It’s like I’m the guy that was on the TV, and the relationship with trust is already built. That’s powerful. “Mom, dad, Marcus from the video is here.” They knew my name like they knew exactly what I looked like. The trust was there. They had learned from me. This is how it changed for me. So, closing rates exploded. Just the general sentiment and feel from the people exploded.
Oftentimes, people would get less quotes because they just felt like, “I mean, maybe they’re going to be a little bit cheaper with somebody else, but I don’t feel like I need to get another quote because I trust you guys more than anyone else.” This is the type of stuff that we heard. And this is what every business wants to hear.
Brad Johnson: I love that. Thanks for sharing that story. So, we’ve talked about fees. We’ve talked about education before the sales process even starts, which obviously can lead to that being a marketing funnel as well. Let’s go to the actual product because what’s funny is you just riffed about 15 different variables when it comes to a pool, and I’m sure there’s plenty others if you kept going, very similar to a financial plan. And one of the things that we see in finance, not all financial plans are created equal, where, “Hey, my XYZ advisor, they build a financial plan.” This guy does too. What’s the difference?” And the truth is there are different types of advisors. There are the guys that just focus on accumulation. They’re just fee-based, and it’s like during the working years, but they don’t focus on distribution.
There’s the CFP standard of income plan, investments, taxes, healthcare, legacy estate, and making those five worlds all fit together in one financial plan that includes taxes, that includes estate planning. So, you’ve also got different professionals that have to be involved besides just the financial planner.
So, how much of your process educated them on the actual product and the quality of the product and making sure, hey, this pool is not the same as that pool, and here’s the price difference? How much of that played in?
Marcus Sheridan: There was a lot of it. Remember the big five, right? And you talk about comparisons. For example, comparisons is prolific in every single industry. fiberglass versus vinyl, fiberglass versus concrete. But then it could be comparisons of different types of options and different types of accessories. That’s a major one. And then you’ve got the best of questions that people are asking. What’s the best type of patio for my swimming pool? And how does stamped concrete compare to pavers? And what’s the best sanitation system for mine? And these are the ones that, I mean, they’re very common. So, like, if you did comparison questions for a financial advisor, just look at some of the different ones that are just obvious, financial advisor versus doing it yourself. Like, which is better? That is a no-brainer.
And so, like if I was you, if I’m doing that, then on my site and online, I’ve got a tool that is a recommendation tool that says, should you work with an advisor or should you do this yourself? Answer these questions and get an honest assessment. Another example, robo-advisor versus human financial advisor, what’s the difference, right? So, that’s a big one these days and that people are learning about robo-advisors and there’s arguments for and against it, and so, there’s misinformation out there. Once again, we should be talking about it. What’s the difference between a financial planner and a financial advisor? If you said to me right now, Marcus, what’s the difference between a financial planner and financial advisor? I got no freaking clue. None. I got no idea. All right? CFP versus CFA versus CPA, who do I need? Right? Like, these are things that people are asking.
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Marcus Sheridan: They don’t know. Should I work with a local advisor or should I work with somebody online? You know what I’m saying? I don’t necessarily know this. And then, if you do, let me just give you some best of, like, a common one is for the people that want to stay somewhat local because they want to have that local thing. It’s like, all right, who are some of the best financial advisors in whatever region, right? That is one. And let me tell you about that one really quick. Best of searches are super prolific from a regional perspective in most industries.
I was sitting in Richmond, Virginia one night, and this is one of the last pull appointments I’ve ever went on. I gave this couple in Richmond a quote after about two hours of sitting down with them in their home. And they said to me, “Marcus, we appreciate you coming out tonight. We appreciate the quote, but if we didn’t get this pool from you, and we think we will, but if we didn’t get this pool from you, is there anybody else you might recommend?” And I thought to myself, my son of a freaking gun, dag gone it. They were buying the pool that night. They didn’t buy from me that night.
But I did have a long drive home, Brad. And I thought to myself, well, they asked the question, which means, ding, ding, ding. I need to answer it. So, I went home that night and I wrote an article, Who Are The Best Pool Builders in Richmond, Virginia? (Review/Ratings). And I came with a list of the best pool builders in Richmond, Virginia, and I listed my competitors out, right? Now, at the time of writing, they ask you answer. I used to say, don’t put yourself on those lists. And the reason is because it would sound self-serving. And they’re already on your website and they’re figuring out very quickly that you’re the best.
In Endless Customers, my newest book, I changed that recommendation. And the reason is because many of these AI platforms like a ChatGPT are using these types of lists to make their recommendations. When somebody goes online and searches best pool builders, Richmond, Virginia, on ChatGPT, literally, they are using content that I wrote. They’ll source my content. So, today, I do suggest that you put yourself on there with a caveat. The way you do it so that it doesn’t sound self-serving is you have to create a criteria for by which you rated these advisors. So, if you say, these are the top 10 financial advisors in the state of Kansas, for example, this being silly, all right? You would say, and here’s how we came up with this list. Here’s the criteria that we used. Maybe it’s number of Google reviews, right? Maybe it’s how long they’ve been in business. Maybe it’s the extent of their services, whatever it is. But you come up with your criteria, then you list it out.
Now, for a lot of people, this sounds crazy to do. I was the first person to openly teach. You should absolutely talk about your competitors. Not negatively, but you should talk about them. You should create lists like this and you’ll benefit dramatically from an SEO perspective. And you will. And I dominated. I’ve had many, many hundreds of clients now dominate, doing this for their region, whatever it is, whether it was their country or their state or their city, by doing what I’m talking about. And now, many of these same people that have these lists, those lists are showing up in AI recommendations as well. So, that one article that I wrote, Who Are The Best Pool Builders in Richmond, Virginia?, the first year I wrote it, I did the math at the end of the year, made a quarter of million dollars in sales.
Brad Johnson: Off that post.
Marcus Sheridan: Off that one single post that I tracked, the sales that came from that one single, quarter of a million dollars in sales, right? So, when I say, who are the best financial advisors in such and such place? That’s absolutely an example of doing this. Some of the other ones that you might want to like general best ones, like what’s the best age to start working with a financial advisor? What are some of the best questions to ask a financial advisor before hiring them? Or like what are the best financial advisors for millennials? What are the best financial advisors for retirees? What’s the best financial advisor for a small business owner? And then there’s such things that are like you wouldn’t think benefit you, but even things saying like what is the best financial software to use? Because now, you can talk about that and inject yourself in that conversation. So, these are types of the research people do. Your choice is you can produce the content, especially on video about this. And that’s why I would suggest that you focus more is video, especially with YouTube. And there’s a very strong argument within the next five years, your YouTube channel is going to be much more important than your website to your brand. And that’s where it’s all headed.
And for example, if you talk to companies right now that have been doing content for a long time and you say to them, has AI hurt your website traffic? Most will say yes. Most will say yes. A lot of companies are losing website traffic right now because 60% of all Google searches don’t even end in a click because they’re just getting the immediate answer. People are getting a lot more of their information on AI. So, that’s what you’re seeing there. But if you talk to anybody and you said, has AI caused you to get less traffic to your YouTube channel? You’re not going to hear anybody say no. AI has not affected YouTube channels, and I actually don’t think it will. If anything, it might help it.
And so, your YouTube channel is going to be a core hub for your brand in the future. If you want people coming to you, if you want them saying, I only want to work with you, I already know what I need to know. I’m ready to get started, which is every person’s dream. YouTube is going to be your future.
Brad Johnson: Let’s go there. So, when you originally started this, and I believe this is from your book. If it’s not, correct me. You think of a Google search bar, old school Google Search, not video, YouTube since they’ve purchased them, not since AI, so pre-AI. It was almost like, here’s a little bar, let me ask the question to find the solution to my question, right? And Google would then feed it to ideally the best answers based on SEO and traffic and all of the other things they used in their algorithm. And so, way back in the day, we were talking about Michael Hyatt before we hit record here. He grew a massive blog and then blog transitioned to video. And it’s continuing to evolve.
But how has the game changed from, okay, now I’m thinking about people typing into Google. Google buys YouTube. Now, YouTube is the video answer to the question, right? It’s just a video version of Google. How does that change the content creation strategy? Just, did you shift everything to video or is there still value in kind of the written blog top five posts? How does that game change?
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah, there is value in that, but it’s diminishing. It’s diminishing by the day, especially because your website is becoming more of a bottom of the funnel tool, and your YouTube is becoming the awareness people find you tool and just video in general. And when I say YouTube, also, I’m referring to some of these other platforms like a TikTok, which there’s been a lot of financial advisors that have built careers and become millionaires on TikTok and certainly Instagram and Facebook. But it’s harder…
Brad Johnson: IG is for sure growing there, yeah.
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, bottom line on the video is there’s a massive shift towards it. And you’ve got to start thinking like a media company. If I said to you, if you really were a media company, what would you do differently? You’d be like, well, huh, I mean, I’d probably have a videographer. Correct. And that’s one thing that, like every financial advisor should have, and maybe you’re the videographer, but you got to have a videographer. At this point in time, though, it’s like even you could, and you know how this works, Brad, but it’s like you can shoot a video, you can send it off to an editor, they can edit it for you. I’ve got a full-time video editor that does just phenomenal job. He’s in the Philippines. He speaks incredible English. We have one-on-ones. He’s awesome. He’s $1,500 a month full-time. He’s living like a king. He’s thrilled, man. He’s getting paid way more than he’ll get in his local economy. I’m getting a huge value and saving a lot of money. So, it’s a win-win, right? So, it’s like when people say, I can’t afford to have a videographer, I think you can’t afford not to because if you want to build a known and trusted brand, you’ve got to do with video, and the truth is you’re probably not going to be– if you’re uploading content to social and to YouTube all day and spending all your time editing, it’s probably going to be difficult for you to sustain that.
Brad Johnson: For sure.
Marcus Sheridan: And so, somebody’s got to own that for you. You’re going to be the subject matter expert. And maybe you can shoot the record, like do the record, but you need it to send it somewhere for someone to do this for you. And so, that is one of the best ways that I’ve seen that combination come into effect. And then when you look at the video side of things, you’ve got the long form and you’ve got the short form, and they both have a place. And they both work extremely well. YouTube just came out now that you can have three minutes for a short-form video. It’s called a YouTube Short, right? So, three minutes, you can do an incredible lesson.
But what’s cool about YouTube Shorts is they do extremely well on search. So, when somebody goes on search right now and they say, who are the best financial advisors for millennials? All right? If you have done a video, a short-form video, short in YouTube about that very subject, there’s a really strong chance that you’re going to show up for it. And that’s, it’s building your brand, plus it’s a trust signal. Every piece of content you put out there is a trust signal for AI to recommend you and your business.
For 20 plus years, all we had to worry about was making sure our customers were happy and search engines like Google were happy. If they were both happy, there’s a good chance we could win. But now, you got to make AI happy. And the way you make AI happy is through trust signals. Every piece of content online about you, about your firm is a trust signal. Every like, every article, every video, trust signal. So, ideally you have more trust signals that you build than any of your competitors.
And of course, the way you do that is you start thinking like a media company and you take that one video, and then you maybe have a long-form version of it. But you also turn it into multiple short-form versions and you post it across the different platforms and you post that onto your website, and then you transcribe it and turn it into an article as well that goes onto the website. So, now, you’re doing all the things, but it started with that one longer form video that you did. It’s so much more efficient. You’ve got your videographer who’s using AI that is so efficient and so cost effective. So, it’s enabling you to scale and have a media department that otherwise, maybe you couldn’t have afforded. Maybe you could, but either way, you’re getting serious about that. But the idea that you can continue to be a super ultra successful advisor, especially newer ones, without doing video, it’s becoming less and less possible, man. It’s becoming table stakes now.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, and back to AI, we’ve talked about it a lot without directly getting straight to it. I just tested this the other day, the opaqueness of information back in the days of stockbrokers where I had to get a broker because it was literally pieces of paper being traded on a floor. All of the information’s on the internet now and now, with AI, you could legitimately say, give me the top five annuities in the industry by sales, and you could create your own best of list, right?
Marcus Sheridan: Sure.
Brad Johnson: And I think the difference is the human connection to your point. If I’ve got somebody that’s been doing this and has dealt with real life retirees and all of these different stories and the ones that played out really well and the ones that didn’t and the mistakes made or the solutions made that allowed them to have success, it’s almost like this, our mutual friend, Donald Miller, it’s the guide that they’re looking for that’s taking them through their hero’s journey.
And I just feel like the human element of AI is not going to be there to have you cry on their shoulder when you lose a spouse when you’re 80 years old and you need somebody to help you navigate that life situation, that financial situation. And I just think there’s going to be, and there already is a strong push into AI, but I feel like it’s going to shift back as that becomes more integrated into the human experience, actually into, I kind of want a real human that can be there with me. So, like, if you future cast the next 5, 10 years and how this plays out, what are some things you think advisors should be thinking about all around this whole concept we’ve discussed?
Marcus Sheridan: Well, to that, what I wouldn’t do is ignore the subject. So, if I was an advisor right now, I’d go out and I would produce a video. And here’s how the beginning of the video would sound. Do you even need an advisor today? Couldn’t you just get everything you wanted from AI? In fact, let’s do some searches on AI right now. Let’s see what we could learn together.
And then I would end up saying, so the question then begs, are advisors worth it? Not always. In this video, I’m going to talk about when they are and I’m going to discuss when they’re not. And by the end, you’re going to have a really clear sense as to whether or not a financial advisor is right for you. And I’m like, “Oh, I’m in.”
Brad Johnson: Let’s go, yeah.
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah, I’m in, because you’re speaking my language. It’s all– and none of it was like, but here’s the problem, because, Brad, the mistake that people make is like, here’s what they do instead. Yeah, the other day somebody comes to me and says, “I can just get this with AI.” And I’m like, “Get this with AI. Is AI going to hold your hand when you lose your spouse? I don’t think so.” AI, come on y’all. AI. Yeah, let’s see how AI handles the next big real time emergency and you need to have that immediate call in the moment. And AI is not updated yet on that crisis. AI’s not going to help you. And you see, the problem with that is it’s so biased that I can tell you’re emotionally, you’re just not with me. You’ve lost the ability to really see things clearly. There’s a lot of advisors that have lost the ability to see things clearly. It started with robo. It’s like continued with AI now.
Brad Johnson: There was crypto in between there, right?
Marcus Sheridan: Yes, yes, yes.
Brad Johnson: So, robo, crypto, AI, it’ll continue. The world’s going to keep spinning and evolving, yeah.
Marcus Sheridan: But the point is, what I’m saying is you can’t act like it doesn’t exist. Lean into it. Use it as your competitive advantage. Explain, here’s the people I’m recommending, use AI. Here’s what I’m saying. Here’s the type of person that’s coming to me that I’m saying, you need an advisor. Now, someone can look at it and say, “This is so freaking helpful. Thank you.” Thank you for being willing to say that, right, instead of just losing your mind on it or ignoring it or acting like it’s still 1980 and everything closes on a golf course.
Brad Johnson: You know what’s interesting? That’s a theme of this whole conversation. If you’re going to survive into the future as a financial advisor, as somebody that builds pools, whatever your industry is, you better be a student of the game and educate yourself. Because everything you’ve talked about, I’m just going to call it what it is, you’re not coming across as a pool guy right now. You’re coming across as a student of the game when it comes to marketing, sales, business. You just applied that to that industry, and if you’re an advisor that’s just like, “Hey, I’m sitting behind my desk and hoping somebody walks in and I can sell them something,” that’s going extinct in the future.
Marcus Sheridan: That’s why if we build on principles as advisors were built to last, if I said to you, is trust going to be paramount to your success as an advisor in five years? You’d say, no doubt. If I said 20 years, I mean, 20 years is a long ways away, right? You’d say, yeah, no doubt, still going to be paramount. But if I said to you, is Google going to be important to your business in five years? You’d say, I’m not sure. Is LinkedIn going to be important? I’m not sure. So, they’re all platforms. Platforms come and go.
And so, if you latch onto the principle, because even YouTube’s going to come and go, right? But the reason why we’re saying YouTube today is because there’s a major shift towards video, is where the buyer behavior is at, plus at least the most Trust. And trust is a thing that we know it’s not going away. And so, that’s why the ones that don’t have success, that don’t innovate are the ones saying, yeah, but he doesn’t understand my business, he doesn’t understand my buyer. That’s not how it works in this industry. That is so freaking easy and lazy to say.
As someone that has now given a thousand keynotes around the world, that’s how many I’ve done, I can tell you that about 50% of all people, they hear something new and they say, that just wouldn’t work for me. The sad thing is, Brad, there’s been people that have been listening to this podcast and they have been thinking, but there’s no way this would work for me. That person is going to eventually be left behind because they’re not going to be willing to (a) replace old methodologies or ways. They’re not going to be willing to change. They’re not going to be willing to break the rules that I’ve been giving to them, but this is what I know to be true. The rule breakers eventually become the rule makers, and everybody else becomes the rule followers, and we see this over and over again in a multiplicity of industries.
As a pool guy, I broke a ton of rules, and we became the biggest name in that space because we were willing to break those rules. My question for you, if you’re listening to this is when was the last time you broke a rule? And when I say rule, obviously, I’m talking about one that you’re…
Brad Johnson: We’re not talking like legal rules and compliance and suitability. We’ll put that in there for our team to hear that. Yeah.
Marcus Sheridan: Right. I’m talking about when was the last time you really did something that your other advisor’s friend said, “Dude, you can’t do that.” Man, that’s crazy.
Brad Johnson: You know where my head goes is, I mean, the world turns and evolves and changes, and change is inevitable in business, in life, in everything. And you can stick your head in the sand and be oblivious to it and try to ignore it. Or you can look at dead in the eye and say, hmm, how am I going to adapt? Do you want to be Kodak that invented the digital camera and then buried it because it was going to hurt their film sales? Or do you want to be Netflix that blew up their own DVD business by going to streaming and look where they’re at now, right? Like, you see all these real-life examples as you look back in history.
And to your point, oftentimes, I see ego get in the way. Oftentimes, I see, oh, this is how we’ve always done it. We built our business this level. But you have to keep your eyes wide open, and AI is evolving at a rapid pace, and this is the worst it’s ever going to be today. And so, you might as well embrace it to your point. And I couldn’t agree more with your take. So, you said I was free to debate. I hope I’m also free to agree with your takes, but…
Marcus Sheridan: Well, but I mean, there’s a reason why you are where you are, Brad, right? And you’re a fiduciary to your fellow advisors that you guys are working with. You are trying to make sure they’re built to last. That’s one of the reasons why you have this pod, right? That’s why you have the business. And I choose honesty over comfort in the moment, right? Because I know if we ignore it, we’re going to be way more uncomfortable in the future. There’s a lot of advisors, let’s be real, that are going to be left behind in the next few years because they either (a) acted like AI didn’t exist, that it wasn’t going to affect them, or they were aware of it, but decided to not take any action and to continue to do things the way that they’ve been doing it, both of which are irresponsible.
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Marcus Sheridan: I think you lean into it. I think you talk a lot about it actually as an advisor. I think you lead the conversation on, like I said before, how much do people still need advisors? Totally, man, I think that is a– because everybody’s going to be asking it, so you need to be the leader of that conversation, and then I think you’re going to be fine.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. I think the other fun exercise to play in business and I did take a StrengthsFinder test and my number one strength was futuristic. So, I’m probably naturally wired to think this way. But I look out and it’s like, what’s the world going to look like in 10 years? And it’s kind of a fun thought experiment. As we record this June 25th of 2025, Tesla logistic, few days back started robo-taxis in the city of Austin. I mean, the next couple of years, that’s going to be prolific. Like, I’m actually kind of hopeful that my kids won’t have to drive because that scares the hell out me.
But if I now think about how does human behavior change with that societal change? Back to video, I started a podcast back in the day. The beauty of an audio podcast, you can multitask. I can drive while I’m listening. In the future, people won’t be driving. What are they going to be doing? They’re going to be watching video.
Marcus Sheridan: Correct.
Brad Johnson: So, why wouldn’t you get ahead of that? It just makes sense when you really think about where’s the world going?
Marcus Sheridan: I live for the day where I can legally be in the driver’s seat and be working on my laptop or whatever device it is, because the car is autonomous. I cannot wait for that moment.
Brad Johnson: Think about the time savings for all humans. You’re like, oh, we’re going back for the holidays, but I can knock out some stuff real quick, and you can actually get there sooner because you’re working along the way. It’s a beautiful thing.
Marcus Sheridan: It makes me think of, too, there’s going to be a lot of financial advisors that, I experienced this recently. I went to Phoenix and I saw Waymo for the first time in my life. I haven’t been to San Francisco in 20 years. I don’t know, like maybe 10 years or so. So, I’ve not been there. And Waymo started it, right? So, now, there’s a lot in Phoenix. First time I see it, it’s utterly extraordinary to me. I took a photo and I showed it to a couple of friends. I live in the country in Virginia, very rural. And they’re like, “That’s not real. No way that’s happening.” I’m like, “That’s happening right now, bro.” That’s like, people are getting in these cars, they’re ordering it, and it’s cheaper than a human, da, da, da, da, da. Like, no way that’s happening. Like, see, it’s like they’re literally not believing that it’s happening right now. And then all of a sudden, boom. And then all of a sudden, it’s normal. And we can’t imagine it any other way. It’s like, you can imagine not using ChatGPT today. We’re already like frustrated when we do deep research and it takes like five minutes to give us a full report. That’s wild to me.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Oh, chat’s really slow today. It took five minutes to put a 75-page report together, you know?
Marcus Sheridan: Correct, yes.
Brad Johnson: And as you think about how business evolves, did you see what the Tesla taxi does if you try to tip them? If you try to tip Tesla taxi, it says, haha, not allowed. You can’t tip our robot. So, just think of the disruption already that’s going to cause with Uber and Lyft, it’s like, I promise that’s on their radar. So, as a financial advisor, you can’t just sit there and ignore the world as it continues to evolve and change. So, man, I love the theme. I know we could keep rolling here.
One thing I appreciate, I love having deep conversations with thoughtful people, and this is 100% been one of those, Marcus. Shout out to Derek Coburn, I should have done this the beginning, who connected us and made the intro and thankful he did. So, last question I have for you, it’s a little bit more on the philosophical life side at Triad, and the whole heart behind this podcast is we want to create businesses that bless our lives, don’t become our lives, and unfortunately, in finance, when all you do is deal with money, it can consume you. So, we’re on a mission to not allow that to happen. So, I know you’re a family man. You put a lot of thought into the intention behind that as well. Besides your business, what would Marcus’s definition be when it comes to do business, do life?
Marcus Sheridan: It’s interesting. I’m not a huge believer in work-life balance, but I’m a huge believer in work-life integration. I have traveled the world and my kids have gone with me. And let me just say this, as a parent, there’s a great litmus test that you can have, and that is how many inside jokes do you have with each child individually? Because the way you are able to create an inside joke is you have to have a singular experience with that one individual, and then it’s just y’all’s to share. It’s not anybody else’s.
My oldest daughter, she traveled with me six months around the world. She was 14. She went to Africa with me. She went to Europe with me, all these places where I was speaking. We get back home, and my wife’s like, “Y’all keep doing this thing where she says something and you understand it, and I don’t understand it.” I’m like, “She’s on the inside, honey. That’s all our thing now.” So, the point is, how many inside jokes do you have with each one of your children? That is an indication of how many unique experiences you’ve been able to create with each one of those children or each one of those special family members. Now, I would challenge anyone that’s listening to this to create as many as possible.
Brad Johnson: I love that. That is awesome. I’m curious, do you know a guy named Jim Sheils, Family Board Meeting? Have you guys ever crossed paths?
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah. He’s got a newsletter, doesn’t he?
Brad Johnson: 18 Summers, maybe. He runs it with his wife, Jamie.
Marcus Sheridan: Yeah, I think, I know. I’m pretty confident I’ve seen his stuff. Not super close, but I know I’ve seen his stuff.
Brad Johnson: Well, I only share that because the one-on-one is so powerful. And Jim’s whole concept, that’s probably my most gifted book of all time, is just like you would have a board meeting in business, have a board meeting with each of your children quarterly, but one-on-one, no electronics, activity of their choosing. And I’ve done that since my oldest was probably five. He’s 15 now. And to your point on those little moments, like they’re just so powerful and they’re priceless. And you’re challenging me to make sure I’m coming up with some insiders that only each of me and my children know, so I appreciate that, man. So, well, Marcus, this was awesome, man. Excited for the time when we actually get to connect in person. But thanks so much for sharing your wisdom with the DBDL audience and man, I’m excited for the future conversations and where it goes from here.
Marcus Sheridan: Really appreciate it, brother. Thank you.
Brad Johnson: All right, till next time. We’ll see you.
