Brad Johnson: Well, Jefferson, welcome to another episode of Do Business. Do Life, and you’re here in Arlington, Texas. We’re getting ready to kick this thing off, but before we did, it was time to do a podcast. So, thank you for joining me.
Jefferson Fisher: Absolutely. I’m ready to kick it off, man.
Brad Johnson: Alright. Well, as I thought about your journey, there’s a really cool parallel with a lot of advisors out there. You were working for another firm that was not your own. You decided to make this leap of faith. And somewhere along the way, you’re like, “Hey, I’m going to kind of build in public.” And so, you start out, and you go down that path, and then it takes like a hard curve. And so, my question is, at what point did you realize what you were putting out there that communication was actually the product, not like, here’s how to build a law firm?
Jefferson Fisher: It was such a wild path that it’s almost to me this, you kind of have to not want it to get it kind of thing to be able to, you just want to put as much value as you can. So, yeah, I left the big law firm, just create my own. And like many other advisors, they’re probably thinking, “Yeah, can I do this? I want to do it,” and it’s just full of adrenaline. And as soon as I started, like you said, I wanted to, I was like, “I guess I’ll just document like building this law firm.” And I’ll tell you that was the hardest part is posting in front of your friends. It’s way easier to post in front of strangers. When you post to your friends, that’s when in your head of like, “Oh my gosh, what are they going to think? Oh, they probably, ‘This is so cringey,’” and like you get in your head.
And then I had to get to this place where it was, man, if there’s a friend out there who’s criticizing this, they’re no friend. They’re not going to appreciate what I’m trying to do. And once I got over that and then fell into this aspect of what if I stopped selling, telling them what legal services I did, what to do in a car accident, or how to know when you need a will, or all this stuff. And I just found a way to add value to their kitchen conversations, to their morning routines, to dinner time. Like, what could I do there? What do they think attorneys do? They think attorneys argue a lot. I could talk about communication. I help teach and train every one of my clients before a deposition. So, I thought, what if I start there? And then it’s just been all gas, no breaks since then.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, I feel like you kind of struck lightning because the first post was how to argue like a lawyer, right? Wasn’t that the one that just kind of hit the algorithm and took off?
Jefferson Fisher: That was the one that took off. But I had posted probably six videos before that, not knowing what to do because Instagram was brand new. And so, in terms of… Not Instagram. Videos, reels were brand new. And so, at the time, remember, it was where you could like lip sync on videos, like little bitty sound bites that people would like lip sync content. I tried it out because I didn’t know how to post a video. You know, I didn’t know. And I had to be willing to look a fool, like I had to be willing to just get over the cringe because you don’t grow without it, like you have to be okay with the cringe. That’s the only way I figured it out. That’s the only way I started to have these moments of, okay, what do I like doing? Why do I follow who I follow? Why do I like this?
And then that’s where it kind of led to, “Well, what if? You know, what if I did a video on how do I argue like a lawyer? What’s a hurt? What’s it going to hurt?” And so, I didn’t have a fancy camera set up or a mic or anything. I just thought I had my phone, and let’s try it.
Brad Johnson: There you go. There’s a lesson in that. One of the things we say in our house is Johnsons get uncomfortable and do hard things. That’s where you grow.
Jefferson Fisher: Nice.
Brad Johnson: And I feel like your very first one, you’re like, “Hey, I’ve got to figure out this reel thing.” Literally, you say it in the video.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: You didn’t know how it worked. You just literally got out, started putting in reps.
Jefferson Fisher: Oh, yeah. Oh, then you saw it.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. I did my research for this. I did my research.
Jefferson Fisher: You saw it. Yeah. Sure did.
Brad Johnson: Okay. So, now, it pivots from, “Hey, I’m going to start a law firm. I’m going to let you kind of follow along,” to, “Now, I’m going to teach you some communication lessons that I use on the daily that I think you can apply to your job or your life.”
Jefferson Fisher: Right.
Brad Johnson: Was that then where you started to shift, and it all became primarily focused on communication tactic skills? Or how did you start to figure out, “Okay, this is what the people want, so I’m going to provide it for them”?
Jefferson Fisher: There was a moment where I got in my head of asking, “What am I doing this for? Like, what’s the path? What’s the goal?” Is it just that I want to make videos just for my own like personal enjoyment? And then it became, “No, really, what can I do to help people? Why did I become an attorney? Is it just to get cases and the people who have billboards, or did I really do it to help people? And do I have to look like a lawyer? Do I have to sound like a lawyer to help people?” And once I thought, “Well, what if I do this video on how to argue like a lawyer?” And then for the first time, I have strangers who are commenting on my video. No idea. I didn’t know that was even a thing.
And then I remember I had a friend when I was in law school, where I came out of law school, he had a thousand followers. And I thought that was just the craziest number I’ve ever seen. I had 800 from college and law school, and he had a thousand. I was like, “How do you have a thousand followers? Like that’s just insane.” And I’m not kidding. It just as soon as that video started to take off, and then I said, “I don’t know what to do. What do you do when a video goes really well?” And I said, “I guess I’ll make a How To Argue Like A Lawyer Part Two.
Brad Johnson: Start with part one.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. And so, I think I’ve made like 10 of them. And then it was still, the fourth one went even more viral than any of the others. And it was all the little comments of, “This is so helpful. I just used this in my conversation. It really made a difference. This is really helpful to me.” And I’m like you feel like you’re doing something of people I’ll never meet, but still just as meaningful, and it’s like, “Wait, I can affect change just from my car, just from my seat.” That to me is still one of the wildest things that I’m here sitting with you because I pulled out my phone while I was in my car. I will say, I was probably one of the first to, I guess, be dumb enough to just start giving advice in my car. There are lots of people now that do that, but it was something that I never saw coming.
And so, for anybody who’s thinking out there, “I don’t know, can I make content?” The answer is you can. You just have to do it now. Like, you just have to be okay getting out your phone. And even if it’s, you saw my first one, I got my phone and said, “Hey, I’m trying to figure out this reels thing. I don’t know what I’m doing, but I start a law firm. Feel free to join along, if you’d like.” It’s as simple as that.
Brad Johnson: Well, I think one of the keys is authenticity. From the get-go, you’re like, “I don’t have this figured out, but I’m going to do my best.” Hope it brings value. Let’s go.
Jefferson Fisher: Right.
Brad Johnson: And I think part of content creation is that. It’s like you can’t figure it out until you get in the game. And a lot of people just sit on the sidelines and, “Oh, well, this script isn’t perfect, this video isn’t perfect.” You’re just like, “Let’s go.” And here we are, New York Times bestseller. As of about 30 minutes ago, 6.2 million followers on Instagram, which was, I think, where the first post was. Correct? Was it on IG where the selfie was?
Jefferson Fisher: Yes. I did IG, and then TikTok was like brand new.
Brad Johnson: Oh, TikTok.
Jefferson Fisher: And so that’s what I…
Brad Johnson: You jumped in there.
Jefferson Fisher: I didn’t know what I was doing. Yeah, yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, I want to make sure we get into your content because it’s incredible. And by the way, I love the fact that you read your own book on the audio version.
Jefferson Fisher: Thank you very much.
Brad Johnson: Because it actually shows your communication style.
Jefferson Fisher: Thank you.
Jefferson Fisher: So, I think that’s awesome. So, let’s go into you’re actually a trial attorney, I believe a fifth-generation attorney.
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: And East Texas. I got that from the mama.
Jefferson Fisher: There we go.
Brad Johnson: Referenced over and over in the book.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, there’s nothing else I call it.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, I love it. And the first thing that really hit home right out of the gates, you tell a story of a big, I forget his name, big burly dude. He’s in there for a deposition. He hates attorneys.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Yeah. Bobby.
Brad Johnson: Bobby?
Jefferson Fisher: That’s not his real name.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. I had a feeling.
Jefferson Fisher: But it’s close enough to it. Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, you talk about the hidden conversation. And what struck me in finance, financial advisors deal with that all the time. They’re dealing with somebody across the table, a million dollars, 2 million, 5 million, their life’s work. They’re kind of like they’re a little closed a lot of times when they first get into that conversation. So, how do you start to understand there’s a hidden conversation? How do you identify that? And then what do you do about it once you figure that out?
Jefferson Fisher: Well, first, you understand there’s always a hidden conversation. Always. Even if you don’t expect there to be one, even if it’s somebody you love and you know, or you’re married to, there’s always a hidden issue that’s happening behind the scenes that you don’t know. It is not their fault, and it’s not your fault. It’s just human nature. And so, you take the world of finance, of financial advising. So, if I have somebody who’s in a suit, I have somebody who talks about money and talks about terms that I don’t really know. They’re talking about indexes and Dows and BlackRock, whatever. I could pretty much be one, right? Yeah. If we’d start talking about that and the market or whatever, this other person who sits there obviously doesn’t know those terms.
What does that make the other person feel immediately? Uncomfortable, unqualified, less than, because you have a terminology. I don’t. And so, to me, the role of somebody who’s in that professional seat has to find a way to say things that does not cause the, “I feel less than.” You have to use words and describe them just as simple as bread and butter. You can’t try and fix it up because it causes distrust. So, one is you know that there’s always a hidden language. Two, it’s finding out what language they speak. Because it’s not the flowery, it’s not the flagrant, it’s not the let me show off, let me show my watch a little bit of whatever that is, because that stuff is not what matters. That’s not what gets them to sign.
Because what’s going to happen is they’re going to feel like, “Well, I don’t have that much money, and so I need to talk as if I do,” because now they’re feeling insecure that they don’t, yeah, you have that client. That’s the Johnson that make 50 million in assets. They have a family office and all that stuff. And here this other client, what they’re going to do? Compare themselves to everybody else. And so, when you’re able to know there’s a hidden conversation, identify the language that they speak, and be able to make them feel as though no other client in the world could ever compare to who they are, and who you’re asking them to be, and who you want to be to them, you’re gold.
So, you have to use questions in a way that gets them to talk more and feel almost as if you are saying, “Hey, I want to find the gold star in your life and let me put a big spotlight on it so it shines really bright,” rather than saying, “Hey, I have a really big gold star. Do you want in on it?” Like, then it’s not theirs.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, that makes sense. It’s serving versus selling.
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: You’re trying to uncover, “Hey, how can I help?”
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: At the end of the day.
Jefferson Fisher: Right.
Brad Johnson: You talk a lot in your book about the non-verbals, which would be kind of, I think, you make the reference of fight or flight, rest and digest. And as a trial attorney, I’m sure you are cued in on those all the time for both the people you represent and maybe the people on the other side of the table.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: As an advisor, what are some nonverbals where you might be able to see there’s a hidden conversation or some resistance to a conversation, and how you need to start to unpack that?
Jefferson Fisher: Every person has a surface and a depth. That’s their current, and what’s really going on underneath. And this could be marriage advice as much as it could be between client and professional. As soon as you can pick up on what I call the ignition modes and the cooling modes, like you have this phase where it gets you all worked up. And then a cooling phase that kind of calms you down. The nonverbals you have to look for, especially in a professional setting, is the lean away. Anytime there’s just the brightest little push away, it’s usually a push away from the conversation. So, let’s put in, let’s say I’m taking your deposition right now, or let’s say you’re taking mine.
Brad Johnson: Okay.
Jefferson Fisher: All right. So, you have your elbows on the table. You’re showing confidence. You’re asking this question. You’re staring at them in the eyes, and you ask me a question that makes me uncomfortable, or maybe I’m not really sure, and what do I do? Let me think on it. So, I just naturally push away from the table. So, I’m saying, “Ah, I need some distance here.” So, that right there is a very big sign.
Brad Johnson: And you see that a lot?
Jefferson Fisher: I see that all the time. Folding arms, people say, you know, that shows a lot of defensiveness. Yes. I don’t see that near as much as touching your neck. Like that, touching your face is a very high, what they say is, it shows you feel vulnerable, and so you’re having to protect yourself. I want to make sure I don’t cover the mic, but it’s like, it’s because the neck is exposing, right? Think of medieval times.
Brad Johnson: Almost like a caveman.
Jefferson Fisher: Exactly. Yeah. Because that’s your vulnerable spot. I mean, you could have all the muscles in the world, but you can’t get jacked in your neck. You know what I’m saying? So, we do this a lot where we are covering our mouths.
Brad Johnson: So, it’s like this?
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: Kind of.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anytime you’re touching your face, it’s usually some kind of indicator that something else is bothering you or going on that it’s not like you have to be a mind reader. It’s only saying they’re thinking of something else. There’s a conversation in their head that I’m not invited to right now. And so, it’s having the patience to be able to draw the conversation out enough that they feel comfortable once you’re, I mean, you’re truly drawing it out of them that they feel comfortable enough of, “Okay, am I in a safe enough environment to say this?” Otherwise, they won’t. So, okay, we got people pulling away. We have people touching their neck.
I find that one of the biggest indicators that if I can tell somebody is, I’ve hit a sensitive area, is their breath. They kind of fidget, and they’ll do it like this, like they taking a really big breath in that moment. Or like if somebody’s upset you and they say something you don’t like, what did we do? We go like we turn our head as if, like, “I don’t know if I really agree with that. I don’t agree with your politics. I don’t agree with what you’re saying.” And so, those to me are the three that as soon as I get that, I’m automatically on, “Okay. I need to ease off a little bit. Let’s dive down.”
Brad Johnson: So, in the book, how you kind of disarm this gentleman that hates attorneys, doesn’t trust attorneys, I will say you guys might wind up advisors.
Jefferson Fisher: Right. It might be the next we do. Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Johnson: So, you basically almost changed the complete script and just say, “Hey.” Was your exact question something about, “Hey, what’s been tough for you this year?” It was something where you pivoted just to more of the life side and kind of opened up a different conversation because he was resisting the other conversation. So, when you see that you’re an advisor, how do you shift it to build rapport and start to break down the walls of defense?
Jefferson Fisher: In that moment, I had to say, “Okay. I need to pull him out of what we’re doing right now.” Let’s forget we’re in a room. Let’s forget our titles. Let me just ask how you doing? And that’s what I did. I asked him and said, “What’s been your biggest struggle this year? Like, what are you chewing on?” I mean, because we all have things that are going on.
Brad Johnson: For sure.
Jefferson Fisher: And so, I just felt blessed with the situation that I had for him to be able to actually voice it, even though it was in anger, and especially when it was in anger, because the higher that tension, that just means the bigger the release I’m about to get. And so, when somebody’s yelling at me or raise their voice, they’re going to come down. They can’t yell forever. And so, they’ll hear me then. They just have to get it all. They have to get it all out.
So, how do you apply that in the financial advisor kind of role is you have to be able to say, “Alright. Let me pull you out of this dollars and cents conversation. Forget that I want to sign you up. Forget that I know anything about money or that you want me to manage your money, or anything like that. Forget on the idea of wealth, like, what else is wealth to you, aside from money? Let’s forget that there’s money. What else is wealthy to you? What’s a sign of success in your life?” Have that conversation with them. Wouldn’t you get to know them more?
Brad Johnson: For sure.
Jefferson Fisher: For you get to say, “Okay. Now, we talked about money, wealth. What else is wealth to you in life? What other kind of wealth are you building? You having time with your grandkids? Are you building time with your spouse? How else are you building wealth?” Because my job is not just the money aspect. I also want to build. I mean, you know this as well as anybody. I mean, money is just a piece of the pie in wealth. And so, if you said, look, I’m only here to, I’m talking about the holistic wealth, not just the financial. Imagine the conversations you get to build with people of get to hear their hopes, their dreams, and out where they’re dedicating their time.
Brad Johnson: And that is also oftentimes what gets people stuck. They’re looking at the accounts, they’re looking at the returns, they’re looking at the spreadsheets. And there’s an anxiety about it. And when you take and say, “That’s just the tool,” what’s the purpose? What’s this actually for? Time with the grandkids. Where are they at? How many kids do you have? Now you’re getting into the aspirational, the emotional side. Absolutely. So, you’re almost like, when you feel the resistance, it’s almost like take a step back and let’s kind of redirect and kind of refocus. That’s kind of what I’m hearing you say.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Well, and it tracks with my belief of like you’re not going to be able to take the money with you. So, then what are you doing it for? Yeah. Everybody wants to make money. What are you doing it for? You can’t take it with you. And so, everything, especially in financial advisor, you’re advising them on things they can’t take with them. Now, they can leave it and pass it on, but that’s not going to render them the moments of their life they’re going to remember when it’s time for them to go. And so, when you put the emphasis on, yeah, money’s cool. That’s not what I’m about. And so, that was the mindset that I was led to take on.
Attorney income? Yeah, that’s cool. That’s nothing compared to the value that I get to help people. To that kind of stuff, helping people argue less and talk more, have conversations, and actually communicate and improve their businesses and improve their relationships, yeah, that’s way cooler.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, let’s get to arguing.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, yeah. Let’s do it.
Brad Johnson: Not us, but let’s talk about it.
Jefferson Fisher: Oh, man, come on.
Brad Johnson: I think I would wave the white flag.
Jefferson Fisher: That would be fun, though.
Brad Johnson: So, you mentioned nobody ever wins an argument. I couldn’t agree more. It kind of took me back to the age-old timeless work, How to Win Friends and Influence People. One of the phrases that always stuck with me, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
Jefferson Fisher: Exactly.
Brad Johnson: Same thing. You can win the argument, you still lose it.
Jefferson Fisher: It doesn’t matter.
Brad Johnson: So, how does that play out? I know how you describe it in the book, but how does that play out in finance? Because there’s oftentimes opinions where this product is good or bad based on the financial religion they grew up in. And it doesn’t matter if it’s on the wealth management side, insurance side. But how do we educate even when our opinions are different where they’re strongly held beliefs. So, how would you start to navigate that where it doesn’t turn into a debate?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. It’s this understanding that nobody thinks they’re the villain. Nobody thinks they’re the bad guy. Nobody thinks they’re the one with bad ideas. So, start out with the acknowledgement that they come with good intentions, just as good and noble as yours. They don’t think that it’s any less, and so you have to understand that first of all. The second is having this depth to let’s call it the argument or the disagreement. There could be the depth of what are we really talking about? Is this spreadsheet better? Should this cell be in this row? Should it really look like this? Should it be this tool? Those are all the micro-level discussions. Then you have the macro-level discussions.
What are we doing this for? Where does this go? What’s the purpose of this? What’s something that we can share? Anytime you feel like there’s that friction of, “Well, okay, you like that kind of pen? I really like this kind of pen. You like that paper? I really think it should be this paper.” These things that really, who cares? At the end of the day, it’s the same thing with, you know, we’ve all had those moments in marriage where you move the couch two inches, and should you move it two inches or not? No, that painting shouldn’t go there. It should go there.
Brad Johnson: I don’t touch my couch, just for the record.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. That painting shouldn’t go there. It should go over there. Those things are like, does it really matter? Is that the hill you want to die on? Instead of going micro, go macro. So, you use phrases that agree with them, with their perspective, not with their point. Meaning if I hear something that you say and I don’t agree with it, rather than me going, “Ah, no, I don’t agree,” what are you going to do? Is that going to make you…
Brad Johnson: I’m going to defend.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Is that going to make you go, “Oh, okay. You’re so right, Jefferson. Yes. Let me…” No, you’re going to hunker down. But if I were to say, “You know what, I see things a little differently,” all of a sudden, you don’t get defensive. You kind of get a little curious of like, well, what do you, “Oh, what do you see over there?” When you use words of perspective, you keep things macro, and people don’t get nearly as defensive. And so, let’s say instead of saying, “I don’t agree with you,” I could say, I’m going to begin with ‘I agree’ but go really high level. So, I could say, “You know what, I agree that this is a conversation worth having. I agree that we should talk about this. I agree with you that the way we serve our clients is important to me.”
I mean, you find the very high atmosphere where you can find agreement because they have the same thing as you. They have the same intention. So, you find that goal. It’s like when somebody says something to me, typically about, they’re trying to maybe push some kind of political opinion or something, I might say, “You know what? I agree. I can tell.” Or I say, “I can tell that our security is really safe or important to you. I can tell our security is really important to you.” I might say, “I can tell that patriotism is really important to you.” I’d say, “I can tell that equality and fairness is really important to you.” And you know what they do? They go, “Yeah, you’re right. You know what?” And they just start talking. And all of a sudden they think, “Oh, we’re actually having a conversation. I get to learn a little bit more.”
Brad Johnson: So, you’re zooming out.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, exactly.
Brad Johnson: So, they’re zooming in.
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: You’re zooming out to where it gets high enough level you can find common ground.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: You’re creating and establishing common ground. Then you’re starting to go back down into the conversation.
Jefferson Fisher: Exactly. So, yeah, instead of when they’re zooming in, I’m zooming out. So, I like to think of it as, have you ever been fishing and use like one of those scanners?
Brad Johnson: Of course, yeah.
Jefferson Fisher: You can like tell the depth. It’s like that. I’m constantly looking at not only the nonverbals and what we’re talking about. It’s where are we in depth of the conversation. Meaning, are they up at the surface and I’m trolling at the bottom? And where can I adjust? Sometimes, it’s going to, “I don’t really agree with it.” You kind of have to adjust the lure, too. Like, what am I going to talk with them about? How can I find them in the depth of the conversation? So, instead of going really detail with them, of arguing over the pens and papers, I’m going to zoom out macro of what’s the overarching goal?
Brad Johnson: Yeah. So, that point right there, I see advisors get stuck there all the time because oftentimes we coach first appointment, second, third. The first is a fact-find. Do you have problems? Can I help you fix them? I’m sure it’s not too different for you when you bring on clients like, “Hey, what are we trying to do here? And can I help?” Oftentimes, when you go into a second, it’s taking kind of a before-and-after snapshot of those problems. So, if you’re here, you have anxiety, you don’t have a plan. You want to go hang out with the grandkids twice a year, and you want to have the money to do it right before and after. Well, oftentimes, the prospect will dive deep in the weeds because that’s what the industry has trained them to do.
“Hey, well, what product is that going to be? What asset manager? What BlackRock? You start throwing out, and it’s actually not the advisor going there sometimes. Sometimes it’s the client taking them there. And so, basically, their depth, they’re going here, they’re trying to pick out the granite countertops. We’re just trying to get the blueprint ready. And so, what you’re saying there is, if they’re way down in the weeds, you have to pull them out. You have to say, “Hey, I love the questions,” but I don’t know if this is a phrase in Texas, you’re getting the cart ahead of the horse.
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: And so, you’re like, “Hey, it’s okay. I love where your head’s at, but let’s pull you back to where we’re at to see if that even makes sense to go there in the first place.”
Jefferson Fisher: Let me tweak that.
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Jefferson Fisher: So, I’m going to turn this into a, here’s an example, where let’s say you’re the couple and I’m you, whatever. Instead of me saying, “I really love your question, but what I want to do is this instead of that. I really love your questions, and you don’t want me to answer them just yet,
Brad Johnson: And instead of but?
Jefferson Fisher: There we go.
Brad Johnson: Got you.
Jefferson Fisher: It’s because you sound way more confident. When I’m able to say, hey, I love what you’re doing, you don’t want me to answer those yet. Those are all great questions. You don’t want me to answer those just yet and let me tell you why. That’s the important part. And let me tell you why. Because when I imagine somebody trying to sell something to you and they start telling you what you don’t need, it’s the same principle.
So, if you’ve ever had a waiter and you say, “Okay, what should I get?” And they go, “Here, here, here.” And you know it’s one of the most expensive things and they go, because it’s a three of y’all, the way y’all share this, I wouldn’t really recommend this one. This is probably going to be better for y’all. And all of a sudden, you feel like, oh, they’re actually interested in my best interest. Yeah, it’s like that. You have to find something in the conversation where you go, I don’t recommend that for you. And it’s the same way in conversation.
We could talk about this and we’re going to get there. You don’t want me to talk about that yet? Let me tell you why. And then that’s where you get to kind of say, let’s refine this a little bit.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, it’s 100%. And where I see that is, if I started throwing random suggestions out before we actually did the work to build a plan and understand what you even need, I’d be doing the biggest disservice that you would ask for, because I’m like just throwing darts and hoping one of them hits. That’s not how we build plans here. That’s not how we get from here to here. So, I love that language tweak. So, eliminate but, replace with and. Is there anything else, like if you were constructing the phrasing?
Jefferson Fisher: Yes. I would say, well, not for that sentence. I would add another in the arsenal, and that is we’re going to start a conversation that’s going to last the next month. Like this is going to be a month-long conversation. This is going to be a two-week conversation. People have such relief when it doesn’t have to be now. If I want to change your mind about something, if I really want to plant some seeds in your mind, there’s no such thing as Miracle-Gro for conversation. Like, it’s not going to just happen where all of a sudden, he just had three sentences and my whole world’s different.
But if I say, I’m going to talk to you about some really big things today and this is going to be a two-month conversation between the two of us, what does the other person do? They go, oh, okay, like…
Brad Johnson: Relief.
Jefferson Fisher: Oh, I can talk. I can do that. Same way you’re handling an employee, maybe a big issue that’s happening. There’s some things I want to make sure that we line out. This is going to be a conversation that we’re going to have over the next week. All of a sudden, you’re not running against a timeframe, a time wall, where the other person feels like, oh, I’m going to have to make a decision today. What am I going to do? What am I going to sign?
But if you at the beginning said, hey, look, we’re not signing anything, there’s no paperwork, we’re just going to talk and it’s a conversation that’s going to last three weeks. Paper’s going to come, don’t worry. Paper’s going to come and we’re going to do it together. But right now, it’s just me and you. All of a sudden, they just kind of wilt because then they’re not, that anxiety isn’t hyped up. So, when you’re able to lengthen conversations, even if it’s just metaphorically in their mind, that anxiety kind of reduces.
Brad Johnson: I almost feel like it’s a version of a pattern interrupt too, because anytime you’ve been dealing with a pushy salesperson in life, it’s never more time. It’s less time. It’s got to make this decision now. The offer goes away. So, you’re kind of counterintuitively like, no, that’s not how we do it here. Or if you begin with, I’m not trying to change your mind. Like, I have found that to be really useful. I’m about to, and obviously, I want to change their mind about something. But I’ll typically start with, hey, okay, I don’t need to change your mind. I just need to say this.
And all of a sudden, when I start saying it, or I say it as if I already know, hey, I know I’m not going to change your mind, this is what’s on my heart, and I start talking. They almost kind of go, oh, well, if I do want to change my mind, like we don’t like to be told what to do. And even if it’s the reverse of, well, I don’t know, maybe I do want to change my mind.
Brad Johnson: It’s almost, really, as I dissect your approach, anytime you sense pressure, you’re like giving it space to dissipate.
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: And your language is structured in a way. You’re giving them the space and time to, it’s like you’re steering a luxury liner, not a speedboat. You’re not flipping a 180. You’re like, let’s just steer it a little bit this way. What do you think? Like, I don’t disagree with that, but what about this?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, that’s about right. I’d like to try and create a lot of margin in the conversation, like a lot of white space. Like if I’m reading a good book, I like to see a lot of white space. It just makes it easier to read. So, what can I do in the conversation rather than it being fully justified and it’s all 12-point Arial and it’s almost impossible to read full of jargon? Why don’t I just make the conversation easy to read?
And so, if I can imagine pauses and paragraphs and next page, and maybe, you know what? Just the next page has nothing on it and we just sit. What does that do for the reader? What’s the page turn? And so, when you can think of those kind of conversations like that, that gives a lot of breath to be able to deal with the ignition. Yeah, I can feel you’re getting hyped up about something. I might say, you know what? Maybe so. And then all of a sudden, they start to cool. And so, it’s always being able to adjust.
Brad Johnson: How hard is that to allow for space? You talk about in the book taking a breath, like a pause or a beat before you respond. I feel like whether you’re in a conversation or maybe you’re on stage and you’re presenting, a lot of advisors do that as well. A space like that at first feels like an eternity, even though to the audience, like you barely even took a breath. Is that a muscle you have to exercise and get comfortable? How would you recommend to advisors to start to develop that skill set?
Jefferson Fisher: You just got to do it. That’s the hard part. You just got to choose to do it. Once you start doing it and hear the difference in your language, it just changes something in you. When you feel the confidence, don’t wait. I don’t have to have this stream of consciousness. Or I know some people where they just start talking and they almost kind of have to catch their breath at the end of talking because they’ve just gone on and it’s just a nothing but a run of words. But if I can, whether it’s a use of a small pause, like just a little bit to keep you attentive, just a little bit on edge, or maybe it’s something where you’ve said something that’s pretty hurtful, and rather than me responding, I just let it sit five, seven seconds. The dynamic changes. I don’t say any words, but yet I say everything in the silence. So, I find there’s the benefit of pausing depending on the length. To me, if you can do it well, you can master conversation.
Brad Johnson: Pausing by itself.
Jefferson Fisher: Pausing by itself. Think of people you most respect. Most likely, they’re not really fast talkers. Think of people you love to be around. Think about your grandparents. Like, how do you want people to feel in conversation? Do you want them to feel like they’re in a cold waiting room at the doctor? Or do you want them to feel like it’s your grandfather’s living room? Whenever you are able to slow down in the conversation, it’s relaxing. They want to tell you more because they feel like this is a safe space to pretty much say anything. That’s what you want.
I think of like my grandfather. I can ask him a question and he’ll, yep. You know what I mean? Like he’s in no rush, whatsoever. But his yes is his yes and his no is his no. I never have to question that. So, I would definitely venture to say that if you can master the pause, you can master communication.
Brad Johnson: I feel like human nature just says that is a wise person. Somebody that pauses and speaks slower, number one, it is more thoughtful. But it also represents, even if it’s not more thoughtful, it represents that way.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Here’s another thought for a financial advisor, specifically, and I know this as an attorney, when I get a question from a client, there’s this legal question, let’s say right in front of me. This urge for me to feel like I need the right answer right away and it needs to sound beautiful. And that’s just not real life, because most of the time, sometimes you’re just making it up, right? I know legal principles and I can guess and I know the law, but every set of facts is so different. So, how can I be in a place where I’m going to know with a thousand percent certainty of something? I generally don’t. I mean, that’s why you’re going to trial in the first place. That’s why juries, that’s why you have appeals court. It’s all over the place.
But if you have somebody that’s right in front of you and they ask you a question, what I always try to do is say, let me think. I choose to let them see me thinking about it rather than try to have that rapid fire response, because what it’s telling them is that what I’m about to say is actually thought about. Because they’re not always paying me for the action, they’re paying me for the thinking. And so, it’s the same thing in the financial world. They’re paying for your mind.
And so, when I can, ask me a question rather than have that rapid fire, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we’re going to do X, Y, and Z and this is what the plan is and blah blah, blah. If I can just stop and go, that’s a great question. Let me think about it. It works with your spouse too. She asks you something, he asks you something, and you go, I want to think before I respond to that. All right. Or somebody…
Brad Johnson: Would’ve avoided a lot of conflict. Over the years, I’d probably done that.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, I’m telling you, well, it’s come from a lot of pain or if somebody says something that’s kind of rude to you or ugly to you rather than snapping back, say, yeah, I’m going to need some time with that before I respond. I mean, that’s…
Brad Johnson: You almost just black belt ninjas.
Jefferson Fisher: You just do. You really do. You jiu-jitsu them. You really do.
Brad Johnson: They’re like, man, I don’t even know where to go with this right now.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Well, it ends up that they put themselves in a headlock. That’s what you want to be able to communicate in a way that, look, I’m going to make you feel bad about yourself and I don’t have to say anything. That’s a pretty powerful way to communicate.
Brad Johnson: Let’s go there. We’ve talked prospect client. We’ve talked spouse, team members. Sometimes as a founder, as a leader, you’re going to get into those sort of conversations. You mentioned being direct because sometimes, you have to say tough stuff. There’s no sugarcoating it.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, all the time.
Brad Johnson: How do you make sure that you’re direct? How do you make sure that you talk a lot about values in your communication when it’s a difficult conversation? Like, how do you make sure to navigate that in a way where you’re saying stuff they don’t like to hear, but they still receive it and don’t defend it?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. Well, when it comes to being direct, a lot of people struggle with it because they would just rather it be a little bit more distant than it is. And the way I was taught is use the front door. That’s what it’s there for. And I feel like a lot of people try to go through the back door in conversations and let me, I don’t want to upset you, you know. If you want to be a leader, you have to learn the skill of disappointing people, and that’s part of being direct is it’s a skill to be able to give people bad news.
And it sounds weird, but the more you do it, the better you get at it. That’s the only way to get. It’s not like you just naturally become really good at upsetting people or giving them hard news or something. You can either choose to say the nice thing or the kind thing. I always say the kind thing. Nice says, “I can’t say that, that’s not nice. I can’t tell them that.” Kind says, “Look, I care about you enough to tell you the truth of what you need to hear.” So, how do you package that in a way that you can use in conversation?
One is not doing the slow roll where you’re trying to sugarcoat and then you do the– so listen, as you know, markets aren’t really great these days and the economy, we got this economy, the stuff that they already feel it coming. They already feel it coming. I would much rather you label the conversation right out the gate. Said, this is going to be hard to hear. I need to be really direct with you. I’m going to be very direct with you.
It feels like a punch, but it’s much more of a flick. I mean, it’s going to sting for a second, and then they’re good over it because now they’re in the truth of it. Now, they have the information. The worst part is the lead up where they don’t have the information. So, sometimes it’s like, can you just tell it to me? What’s the news? What’s the bad news? Because you’re just like, oh, I don’t want to. And it’s physically uncomfortable too.
But the more you understand that it’s in there, I’m saying this for your benefit because it’s my job not to just tell you the good. It’s also my job to tell you the bad. And we’re going to have a lot of both in this relationship. And this is one of those times where it’s not great. That doesn’t mean it’s forever. It doesn’t mean it’s right now.
Brad Johnson: And I would assume, assuming you can help them navigate their way out of it, hey, I’m here. I’m beside you. We’re in this together. I’m going to help you navigate through it.
Jefferson Fisher: This is why I’m here. This is why I exist. This is my purpose, to make the hard times easier.
Brad Johnson: And then is there any part of like a good bedside manner where it’s like, and by the way, this isn’t the first time I’ve dealt with this, we’ll get through this, where you’re kind of showing them a little light at the end of the tunnel? Obviously, you need to make sure it’s the truth still. But is there any of that, like you hit them with the direct hard stuff, kind of normalizing it a bit where, hey, other people have gone through this through too and come out the other side, or no?
Jefferson Fisher: You’re going to have to first, once you give the news, you’re going to have to brace for a reaction. Everybody’s different. There’s been people I’ve given bad news to and they were like, hmm, that’s all I got was a grunt. And then other people just lost their minds. What I have to do, no matter what, is to be able to acknowledge whatever feeling they’re feeling. You cannot tell them not to feel that way. You can’t be like, no, no, no, no, wait. You shouldn’t feel that because you see all these other things that don’t matter. It matters. They’re feeling it now.
So, rather than trying to push them away from it, you have to get really disciplined about affirming it. I agree. I agree that isn’t fair. I agree that doesn’t feel fair. If I were in your same position, I’d be upset too. You have to be in a way that says everything you’re feeling is justified right now, even if it’s not the truth of the matter, and I know that things are going to get better. You have to have let them have their moment.
And then that’s when you have, like, you can’t just rush them through that. You have to have space for that, that time in the conversation where they get to kind of just have a reaction then, and you’re going to know when the time’s right, where it’s like just a fresh breeze in the conversation where you get to ask, can I give you a little bit of hope? And they’re going to say, yes, please, like somebody who’s thirsty. I’ve seen this a lot.
And what I’ve seen every single time is that they get through it and in fact, they’re better for it. And I think that’s going to be the situation here. I mean, that to me goes, oh, okay, great. Now I’m in a much better place rather than you going, well, you shouldn’t be mad about this though, because, you know, that’s only going to make them more upset. That’s like telling somebody to calm down when they’re upset. Like, good luck. That’s not going to ever happen.
Brad Johnson: Opposite effect engaged.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Brad Johnson: So, what I’m hearing there is that middle space, so you hit them with the hard news, the direct, there’s a middle space. It could be short, it could be long, but there’s a space where empathy is needed.
Jefferson Fisher: Yes.
Brad Johnson: And I think a lot of advisors struggle with that because they almost get desensitized. They’re like, I’ve seen this problem a hundred times before. Now, for that individual across the table, that’s the first time they’re experiencing it, but the advisor has seen it so many times. It’s like an ER doctor that like somebody’s arms chopped off. I’ve seen this before. Not a big deal. So, how do you start to make sure you’re like checking yourself, like to where you’re not going through the motions as an advisor? I’m sure as an attorney, you see the same things over and over.
Jefferson Fisher: Right.
Brad Johnson: You almost have to, it’s like a mindset thing for you. Are there mental practices that you have where you’re like, give them space, meet them where they’re at, listen, acknowledge? Like, are you going through a mental framework like that when you’re needing to stay in the moment yourself?
Jefferson Fisher: I wish I could tell you I do, but I don’t, I mean, because life happens. It’s more of this state of mind that I try to remember what’s my purpose in their life. Not what’s their purpose in mine. Because if I think of what’s their role in my life, it’s easy to just not really care about their problems. I’m focused on what Jefferson’s doing. But if I reverse it and I say what’s my role in their life, then I’m able to kind of step outside of myself and understand they had a beginning and they’ll have an end. And I have a very small part to play in the right now. That’s where my mind goes.
Brad Johnson: I love that. It’s almost like a spiritual approach to it a bit.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, oh, heavy.
Brad Johnson: That’s what I’m hearing.
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, heavy.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Servant mindset. Very cool. All right, there’s so much we could go into.
Jefferson Fisher: I know.
Brad Johnson: Let’s go to, I’m watching the clock over here.
Jefferson Fisher: Are you?
Brad Johnson: You talk about your values being your compass, which kind of, if you talk about spirituality and how you serve them, when somebody comes at you, I’m sure you’ve had some people come at you probably with some choice words in there.
Jefferson Fisher: For sure.
Brad Johnson: How do you make sure, regardless of how somebody’s communicating at me, I will stay true to myself and be proud of how I communicate and how I represent myself?
Jefferson Fisher: I had a really great role model. Still do. My dad. I mean, I grew up in courthouses. And so, I saw a lot and hurt a lot. And my dad was the type that just not much would ruffle his feathers. And I mean, he’s the type that I’d be in the passenger seat, we’d be going somewhere. Dad’s driving. In the side mirror, I can see somebody’s riding our tail. What does that do to me? I kind of have this anxiety of like, all right, dad, you need to go faster or like you got to do something. And it’s usually like, hey, Dad, I think you need to speed up. They’re on us. He’s like, oh, yeah, I see him. And he just keeps driving.
And so, when it’s safe, I mean, it never failed, he would just kind of merge over into the shoulder and do his hand and he’d always say, go on with your bad self every time. He said, go on with your bad self while he is driving. And that’s the mentality that I really saw a lot of. And when I would get heated about something, usually with my mom, my dad would always have this kind of mentality of, well, what do you think she’s thinking when you do that? Like, ah, don’t make me think about that. That’s not– I want to think about what I’m upset about.
And so, he was always making me think about the other stuff. He’d say, don’t make that your Alamo. If anybody knows Texas history, he’d say, don’t make that your Alamo. Yeah, they’re going to be upset about it and what are you going to do? So, what’s helped me is when somebody has choice for words, for me, I get to choose in that moment. Do I want to be the one carrying those forever? Or do I want them to be carrying it? Somebody’s going to carry it. Those words aren’t going to go nowhere. So, I could either be the one who remembers what so and so said 10 years ago, something they probably don’t even remember.
Or do I want to be the person who doesn’t remember what so and so said, but they do? They still feel bad about it all these 10 years later. Yeah, I’d much rather be where I’m not carrying somebody’s words for free. And I think that’s what happens a lot is we choose to remember things far longer than they need to be, but if I just have this mentality of, ah, I don’t have to pick those up.
Brad Johnson: Your dad trained you from a young age by example.
Jefferson Fisher: For sure, yes.
Brad Johnson: Number one. Great lesson as a parent as well. But he said, what are they thinking? So, he made you walk in their shoes, whether it was your mom or I’m sure somebody else, that’s a great life lesson right there.
Jefferson Fisher: He’d always let me play it out. He’d say, okay, do this.
Brad Johnson: So, he’d unpack it, like, so you’d say, here’s what I think she’s thinking. Then he’d like almost depose you a little bit.
Jefferson Fisher: Oh, it was all what they call Socratic method in law school. So, you teach by asking questions. Same way they talk about like cases and stuff in law school. So, we talk about historic cases, and then the professor calls you up, stands you up, and asks you questions and uses those questions that you answer because you have to do your reading to teach the class. And so, that’s kind of how that was done to me. So, he’d say, okay, what did you say? What did she say?
All right, when you said that, how do you think she felt? And because she felt that way, what do you think she’s going to want to do next? And so, he would play out 5, 10 steps after the conversation would happen. And then he would always be like, you sure you really want to go say that? I’d be like, nah, I don’t really. Okay, that’s what I thought. I’m just realizing it’s really not typically worth it. It wasn’t worth that moment that you thought you needed to get that hit of dopamine because you knew if you’ve said that, it was just going to land so good. Just realize really on all that’s a really pretty hollow feeling.
Brad Johnson: My 15-year-old doesn’t know it’s about to hit him when I get home, Jefferson. All right, as we get close to wrapping here, let’s get to the family element. So, this is fun. This is a fun full circle. So, your dad tries to, I believe, talk you out of leaving the law firm that you both worked for. You decided to not listen to that advice, go start your own. Then starts to blow up a little bit. Now, your dad joined your firm. Your wife has joined your firm. Very common theme in finance. A lot of father/son, father/daughter, like a lot of those dynamics which can be a blessing, can be a little bit of a curse sometimes. What have you learned on that journey, the business side, the life side?
Jefferson Fisher: You have to keep in mind which one has the steering wheel, like which one’s the priority, no matter what. I don’t care how much money any family duo is making. The priorities have to be there. I made a very early decision with my dad. I never want to argue about money ever. We split everything. I don’t ever want to, are you kidding me, with my dad? I don’t ever want it to be like, dealing with anything.
And so, same with, I can imagine in financial advisors, as soon as you forget that you’re related, that there’s something deeper, that to me, it kind of makes it not nearly as special. Don’t get me wrong, there’s times where it’s like, hey, we got business we need to take care of. The problem is where you don’t take off the coat when you get home. If you still are in business mode at home, before you know it, you’re not connecting with your spouse. You’re just talking about work. You’re not really getting to the heart of what she’s feeling or you’re feeling. Instead, you’re just thinking about tomorrow. And you miss out on each other, and so you have to find a way.
Like we set a rule of when four o’clock comes, when we pick up kids, we don’t talk business, we don’t talk work. Now, we might talk schedule at the end of the day, but we definitely don’t talk work because then it just becomes where either the world revolves around you or revolves around me, and that’s just not the truth. It’s both of us. If I am not in conversation with my wife, asking her about how she’s feeling, what God’s doing in her life, and what she’s excited about, I’m not doing my job. Instead, I’m just focused on my world and that’s not a good place to be.
Brad Johnson: Was that hard?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. All of this is hard. You think I just learned all this from a genie? No. All of this has been hard earned.
Brad Johnson: Well, we got to get you on stage here pretty soon, so…
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, it’s going to be great.
Brad Johnson: And we’ve got to make sure we get you some…
Jefferson Fisher: What am I talking about again?
Brad Johnson: Well, we’ll figure it out.
Jefferson Fisher: Okay, we’ll figure it out. All right, cool.
Brad Johnson: No, I think we’ll be just fine after this conversation. So, Jefferson, truly a pleasure. Thanks for carving out the time to have this conversation. Excited to get it out to the world. And selfishly, I’m excited to get you on stage in front of all of our members. It’s going to be a lot of fun and I know there’s going to be a ton of value. So, really appreciate you being here in Arlington with us.
Jefferson Fisher: I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Brad Johnson: All right.
