Brad Johnson: Welcome back to another episode of Do Business Do Life. I’ve got Ian Cron back for another episode, which I’m really excited about. Ian, welcome back.
Ian Cron: Brad, I am stoked to be here. Thanks.
Brad Johnson: Well, for those that are unfamiliar with Ian, Ian’s had a, yeah, I’m going to build you up pretty big here, buddy, so just sit back for a second. But Ian’s had a really massive impact on me personally and my wife Sara, and we were really fortunate to get introduced to him in the most majestic of places, BlackBerry Farm, through our mutual friend, Michael Hyatt. And that was kind of more of a marriage retreat. And really your book, The Road Back to You, had just recently dropped, which was really focused on the Enneagram. And I know a lot of the Triad community is very familiar with it, thanks to you. You’ve come in and spent some time with us. Kenzie on our team, who I know you’re familiar with, she’s kind of our Enneagram ambassador.
In fact, she just sent me a message yesterday that she did an Enneagram virtual breakout with one of our Triad member teams and it continues to have a massive impact. So, thank you for that gift that you have given my wife and I and our family and then also the Triad community. It continues to make waves as we introduce more and more to a lot of those teachings.
Ian Cron: And that delights me so thank you so much.
Brad Johnson: Well, you’re really good at it. As you said, as before we hit record, I was like, “You just make it fun. It’s not some like curriculum that you… It’s a conversation and it’s real life.” And as you said, if you go through life thinking your way of seeing things is the only way, at least according to the Enneagram, there’s at least nine different ways to see things. So, that’s impacted a lot of our teams and definitely our internal team as well. But today, we’re not going to talk about Enneagram. Well, maybe we will, but we’re going to talk a lot more about your new and upcoming book. So, The Fix, I’m going to try to make sure I don’t mess this up, How the 12 Steps Offer a Surprising Path to Transformation for Everyone. Did I get that right?
Ian Cron: That’s close enough.
Brad Johnson: Okay. Well, and it comes out January 28th officially but the cool thing for the audience here today is they’re going to have a little preview. We’ll drop it in the intro in the show notes but they’re going to have an opportunity to download the first chapter before it even is live and available. So, thank you for that gift. And with that, very different topic, very personal topic for you, really dealing with addiction. So, I figured that’s a good place to kick this thing off. What is an addiction and how do you define that?
Ian Cron: Yeah. So, first of all, this book was a real passion project for me. Like, I’m always going to work with the Enneagram. I’m always going to do corporate work, coaching, consulting with it. I love the Enneagram. But really, a couple of years ago I just had this hair stand up on the back of my neck moment, the lump in the throat, which tells me there’s a book waiting to be birthed. And I’ve been a part of 12 Step community since 1987, and the steps have radically transformed my life. They have changed the lives of millions, tens of millions of people who were once deemed hopeless. And one of the things that people don’t know is that actually anyone can do the 12 steps and derive the same benefit from them that addicts, alcoholics, overeaters, you know, etcetera, etcetera, have enjoyed for many, many years.
And I really wanted to bring the 12 Steps into the mainstream so that folks anywhere on the addictive, you know, addiction continuum could enjoy them. And so, to your question, for me, an addiction is any unhealthy compulsive relationship with a person, a behavior, or a substance that has mood-altering effects and negative consequences. So, that could be, for example, workaholism. That could be success addictions, people who are people pleasers, overeaters, people that are addicted to being right all the time or always helping other people. This sound familiar? Or people that sort of addicted to this analytical way of thinking or to anxiety and worry. I mean, people are wired for addiction. It’s just the nature of being a human being. And addictions always drain us of life and in some instances threaten our lives. And so, I just wanted everyone to enjoy the life that I’ve been given as a result of daily working the steps.
Brad Johnson: Well, I’m excited for this book. We just spent about 5 or 6 minutes before we hit the record here, and you were just kind of walking me through a few things. And immediately when I look at the audience that listens to the show, some of the most successful independent financial advisors, not only in the country but all over the world, and I’ve seen a ton of addictions in close to two decades of working in this business. In fact, I’ve been guilty of them myself, whether it’s having one too many drinks, whether it’s the whole success thing. I think sometimes the entrepreneurial lie that I see is I’m doing this for the family. I’m providing for the family. But what you don’t see is the family is there by themselves while you’re out just grinding and working it away and all they want is you at family dinner.
Ian Cron: So, here’s the deal. All addictions are an attempt to use an external solution to solve an internal problem, which, by the way, is like going to the hardware store to buy bread, right? It just does. You’re going to the wrong place. Happiness, peace, joy, the life that you want is an inside job, always an inside job. And so, the steps give us a design for living that helps us disconnect from addictive or compulsive patterns of behavior. And they put our focus on the inside of our lives so that we can really get to the underlying causes and conditions of what’s happening in there and so that we can be free to do life as we dream.
Brad Johnson: Well, I know we’re going to get into some of these 12 steps because I really am hopeful this conversation, if somebody out there is listening and struggling with some of these addictions, I would love if this conversation could be a path to helping them find their way back to where they need to be. But I know your story and you have this in the book, so anything you’re willing to share on this conversation. It was a very, you said, probably the most vulnerable you’ve ever been in the book back to 1987. And I’m sure a few people have kind of put together the 12 steps. I think it originated in the AA community back in the day. And you said you were completely cool with sharing at least parts of that journey where you kind of hit that breaking point and you decided things had to change. So, if you’re cool with that, I’d like to hear your part of that story.
Ian Cron: Right. So, my first introduction was in 1987 when I joined a 12 Step community for people struggling with alcoholism. And, for me, it was a life-saving episode in my life. And the thing that excites me, Brad, is that, as I mentioned earlier, I just think everybody struggles with addiction. In fact, neurologically, everybody’s wired for it. Frankly, you’re just wired for addiction.
Brad Johnson: Why is that? Is there something inside of us that just…
Ian Cron: Oh, yeah.
Brad Johnson: Like what is it?
Ian Cron: I don’t want to dive into the neuroscience of it too much because it gets a little geeky. But essentially, when you experience internal distress and all of us do, anxiety, worry, depression, pressure, whatever it is, right, it’s just at baseline, everybody is always feeling a little dis-eased in the world, right? So, for example, you were sharing earlier that you had a more difficult week than normal and you’re experiencing dis-ease right now. And the way that we work is people are wired because we have a pleasure center in the brain. We find one day, for example, that if we work too much or if we have a compulsive relationship with alcohol or drugs or with any like your porn, sex, relationships, I mean, we just have a bevy of opportunities out there for addiction.
You try it once or you get involved in some kind of behavior and it starts to release dopamine in the brain, right? And dopamine is like the (deep inhale-exhale sound) feeling. It’s like the feeling of like oxygen comes back in the room. I feel relaxed. I feel at home in the world, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And then the brain doesn’t forget that experience and it says, “I want that experience again.” Right? And then it does it again and it gets another dopamine hit. And then suddenly it’s like, “Oh, I found the solution.” And then eventually the solution becomes a bigger problem than the problem it was initially trying to solve. We mentioned workaholism earlier or even the… I worked with a guy once at a big investment banking company in New York, and he came to me and he said, “I’m addicted to the rush of the deal.”
He was in mergers and acquisitions and he was now by this time in his mid-to-late 30s. He’d been doing this since he got out of college and then graduate school. And he just said, “The deal is my drug.” You know what I mean? Like, just the rush of the deal, putting together, and realizing incredibly dumb amounts of money in return, right? And then he says, “I’m retiring.” He was in his late 30s and he said, “I just don’t know how I’m going to live without it.” And I said, “Well, we need to address that as an addiction. That is not just something you enjoy. That’s something that you’re telling me you can’t live without now. You’ve lost the power of choice.” And so, we did some work around the 12 Steps and it basically kind of probably rescued his marriage and a number of other things in his life and put him on the right path.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, you see, I’ve seen a lot of divorces in our space and it’s oftentimes like if you get into those deep conversations with people that have dealt with it, a lot of times it is very much work induced by where the spouse feels like their work is almost like another partner, you know, somebody that they’re cheating on with almost because it’s taking them away.
Ian Cron: Yeah. And so, how is that any different than a divorce over alcohol? You know what I’m saying? Except that, this is where it gets tricky, right, that is a socially acceptable addiction. If you develop an alcohol or drug problem, like I always laugh because in my 12 Step community, people will often begin by saying, “Hey, my name is Bob and I am a grateful recovering alcoholic.” And I remember when I first heard that years and years and years ago, I was like, “What are you grateful for? Like, this sucks, you know?” But what I came to realize is that for people who have found themselves in a desperate situation, there’s places to go and things you can do and there’s pressure from outside to do something about it.
But with socially acceptable forms of addiction, it’s like those people can be miserable forever, right? They can actually get stroked for it by different people. And so, that’s why I’m grateful. I just happened to have an addiction that eventually became public. Because of that, I found my way into a path of recovery faster than people who have workaholism or sometimes sex addictions or porn addictions or overeating or… You know what I’m saying? Like, I have reason to be grateful.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, let’s go to… So, those that haven’t listened to our prior conversations, by trade, prior to being an author, and I don’t really, I guess, I never heard the story of when you started writing books along your journey but I know you were a therapist. You are an Episcopal priest, which is a pretty cool combo already. Back in ’87, when you were struggling, what was your career? Were you a therapist at the time or were you…?
Ian Cron: Honestly, I was a youth pastor.
Brad Johnson: You were a youth pastor.
Ian Cron: Yeah, but I was…
Brad Johnson: That’s probably really unacceptable then, right, to have an alcohol problem with that occupation.
Ian Cron: Yeah. Well, definitely I was living two different lives as people often do, right? Like, I guarantee you, there are people listening right now who have a porn addiction. I just know the statistics. I just know what they are, right? Or they’re acting out sexually somewhere or they’re getting up at 2:00 in the morning and eating to take care of their anxiety and they’re struggling with their health as a result. And the list goes on, right? And, for me, that journey and it gets compartmentalized, right? It’s a secret, right? And so, for me, as a youth pastor, I knew in college that I had a problem with drinking, And other people knew it, too, maybe even as far back as late high school.
But I can actually remember when I was 22 once, I remember exactly where I was. I remember exactly what I was doing. I remember the weather. I remember it was about 4:00 in the afternoon because the sun was coming into the room through the windows at kind of a winter angle, you know. And I remember thinking to myself, “Am I an alcoholic?” You know what I mean? Like, I had a moment of clarity, right? I didn’t do anything about it at that time but, you know. So, I was like being a youth pastor and being Mr. that guy but on the side, I had this other thing going on that nobody else really knew about except for a few people that partied with me, right? And I was involved in a youth ministry that actually kind of like attracted rebel-ish leaders.
So, they all drank and smoked cigars and did the whole thing on the side. And then by 1987, I had recently gotten married and it had ballooned into something that it was becoming more and more difficult to hide. I ended up with a therapist at that time who, when I went to see them, said, “You know, you have a problem with alcohol and I can’t actually work with you until you address that.” And I was at a point in my journey and, by the way, in the book, The Fix, I talk all about this. I share the whole story. I share about a relapse that came years later. And I describe the… Now to your point, you said something very kind about The Road Back To You a few months ago and I’ll just say this.
This is another one of those books where I try and take something that sounds complicated but I make it simple for people to understand. And honestly, there’s a lot of joy in the book. There’s a lot of laughter in the book. It’s not a glum book. It’s not like, “Ehhh.” It’s actually a book where there’s a good amount of humor and it really shows like just the beautiful side of this journey, like the side of this journey that should make your heart pump with joy and anticipation of doing it yourself.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, we said this before we hit record. I’ve hung out with you enough now. You have a great sense of humor and you make things fun and stuff that can honestly be dry. Like, you can make the Enneagram pretty dry but you make it fun, you make it relatable, you make it real life. Just knowing who you are and how you write and the voice you write with, I can only imagine you’ve applied that to The Fix, the new book. You said one other thing earlier that I don’t think we caught before we hit record here. You said everyone has an addiction. It’s just what is that addiction?
And I know we’ve listed a lot of different types, but I think the tough part, oftentimes, you said it’s an internal thing, and a lot of times these addictions are addressing external things. And it’s kind of like putting these worries outside as opposed to turning inside and looking inward and saying, “Wait, why do I feel like I need a drink? Wait, why do I constantly do this every time I have stress?” Is there anything that you could share for those listening in? Like, how can they identify potential addictions? When does it go from a casual drink like, “Hey, I have a glass of wine with dinner once a week,” to, “This is an addiction and this is now crossing the line over to that side of the equation”?
Ian Cron: Yeah. So, typically, I’d ask a bunch of questions, but everybody has to sort of figure out for themselves if they’re an addict. Like, I would never tell someone, “You’re an alcoholic.” Right? I’d say, “Hey, from my experience, based on what I’m hearing from you, it sounds like you have some negative consequences that you’re experiencing as a result of your repeatedly turning to this substance for a solution for whatever ails you.” And like when I work with workaholics and that’s probably maybe one of the addictions that some of your listeners would fall into that category. You know, I might ask them the question, “Are you more drawn to your work than you are to close relationships and rest?”
I might ask, “Do you take work to bed? Do you work on the weekends? Do you work on vacation? Do you pull all-nighters? Do you avoid intimacy with others and/or yourself and use work as a way of avoiding some of that stuff?” I could go on and on with that. I could probably ask 20 questions. And I think a lot of people would say, “Yeah, you’re starting to talk about me.” And it’s like, okay, well, we have to get to the underlying causes and conditions of that compulsion because it’s starting. Here’s another way I know if someone’s listening and they’re wondering, “Is this me?” It’s like, are you beginning to suffer negative consequences and you find it very difficult to stop doing what you’re doing? Are you losing the ability to choose?
So, it’s like, “I really know I have to work less but I’ve sort of lost the choice. I’m like I can’t stop. I’m on a gerbil wheel and I can’t stop. And I derive so much of my self-esteem from this behavior. Everyone strokes me forward. I’m making a ton of money for doing it or whatever but I’m also kind of experiencing internal misery because I’m like I’m just grinding all the time. I’m in bed. I can’t stop thinking about it. I wake up at four in the morning.” It’s like when I hear that, I’m like, “Hm, this sounds like an addiction to me.” And again, like in the book, I have a list of about 50 addictions that I could just name off the top of my head, and I could have listed a bajillion more. It’s just that human beings tend to look for self-prescribed treatment plans for dealing with the pain that they have inside.
That’s just inescapable. It’s just part of being a human being, that distress, right? But all of us would like to find a behavioral or chemical solution to the problems we have inside. And it always ends badly and it always escalates. It never… You know what I’m saying? And it can either be binge-y or it can be chronic, either one.
Brad Johnson: Well, I mean, there is a story. I think it was in the Walter Isaacson biography on Steve Jobs, where, I mean, essentially he wrote that when he was on his deathbed. You look at a guy that created products that literally changed the world. I mean, we’re recording on, at least on my side, on a couple of them right now. And his biggest regret on his deathbed was that he worked too much and didn’t spend enough time with his family. So, just goes to show it doesn’t matter how amazing that work was you did. At the end of the day when you have kind of a clarity of vision, which I think people tend to get towards the end of their lives, it’s that realization like, “Dang, I probably have the equation out of order here that I was dealing with.”
Ian Cron: Yeah. And by the way, what if someone had told Steve Jobs, “You know what, you will be able to accomplish a lot of stuff, a lot of the stuff that you want to accomplish, and you could live a really, really healthy, good life at the same time by working steps”? How amazing would that be if he could have done both? And I think that’s what the 12 Steps offer us.
Brad Johnson: Well, I mean, the name of this podcast is Do Business Do Life. So, I think we’re on target here for this conversation. Well, let’s get to these 12 Steps. So, however you want to unpack this, Ian, let’s just start to get into it because everyone was like, “Well, what the heck are they? Let’s go.”
Ian Cron: Yeah. Okay. So, let’s just, for the sake of efficiency, bucket them under a couple of categories. So, steps 1 to 3, I’ll just read them to you. “We admitted we were powerless over _____ that our lives had become unmanageable.” The second one is, and this is where people can get a little uncomfortable, but whatever, “We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.” And then the third one is, “Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.” Okay. So, the 12 steps are spiritual but they’re not associated with any particular religious or denominational organization or institution.
Everybody gets to kind of make up their own mind as to what their higher power or God is, I choose to call them. They get to figure that out. That’s between them and God. Now, so the first three steps are all about mending and connecting to our relationship with God, right? So, what we’re doing at this point is we’re just admitting like, “I’m out of ammo.” Like, I had a guy recently I worked with. He’s in the corporate world. He’s just talking about his marriage and he’s like, “I’m out of ammo.” And I said, “Yeah, you’re powerless.” And this is not a guy that likes to be… This guy went to Stanford Business School, went to Stanford undergrad. You know what I mean?
This is not a guy who’s used to hearing people tell him he’s powerless but ultimately, that’s where the journey has to begin. It has to begin with this admission of powerlessness that I’ve lost the ability to choose. I’m stuck in an addictive pattern either to a substance or to a person or to a behavior. And I’m lost, right? Now, when you get to steps 4 to 7 and I won’t read them all unless you want me to.
Brad Johnson: Can we take a second on that powerless one? Is that okay?
Ian Cron: Absolutely. Let’s go.
Brad Johnson: It’s basically saying, “I need help. I can’t do this on my own.” And I think probably the tough things, especially for really successful entrepreneurs, of which you’ve told a couple of stories already, they’re not used to that feeling. They’re winning in all these other aspects. So, if you were sitting there talking to somebody, that’s probably like when you were riffing a little earlier, like, “Man, that kind of sounds like me but wait, I’m super successful. I’m an entrepreneur.”
Ian Cron: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: Is that like a breaking point has to occur? Like what? How do people actually say, “I’m powerless. I need help”?
Ian Cron: Well, oftentimes, they’re blessed with the gift of desperation, right? Like, their spouse is about to walk out or their kids are estranged because they don’t spend any time with them or whatever it is. So, there is sometimes an experience that is a wakeup call and sometimes it’s gradual and sometimes it’s sudden. But you have a heart attack or you have an illness or something just comes along that makes you realize, “I’m in trouble here. I need help.” So, if you were to break down those first three steps, it’s really simple, right? The number one would be, “I can’t.” Number two is, “God can.” Step three is, “I think I’ll let Him.” That’s basically what it is.
The steps are so simple. They’re not easy but they’re so simple, which is why I love them. Whenever I run across a system like the Enneagram or the 12 Steps that’s really pretty simple, I know that I might be in the presence of real genius because really genius stuff is pretty simple a lot of the time, right? It’s so obvious, we make it complicated.
Brad Johnson: Simple. Not easy. Right?
Ian Cron: Simple. Not easy.
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Ian Cron: Simple. Not easy.
Brad Johnson: Okay. I’ll let you get to 4. Yeah, go 4.
Ian Cron: All right. So, 4 through 7, now, this is all about mending our relationship with ourselves, and that involves doing a fearless inventory of ourselves. It is about admitting to God and ourselves and another human being that the nature of our wrongs, our character defects, the stuff that is holding us back from becoming the best expression of ourselves in the world. And it’s also turning those defects of character. And so, our issues, our stuff, right, over to God who really. You know, let’s face it, right? Like, in your life, Brad, are there character defects you have that you’ve done everything in your power to get rid of but you can’t?
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Ian Cron: Right? It may be your temper. It might be that you have an issue with being hypercritical of other people or yourself. And you’ve done everything in your power. You’ve been to therapy, you’ve done everything but it’s like, “Oh, man, I cannot shake this thing.” So, we just learn to turn that over to the care of God, who in my experience and this is not an overstatement, can do for you what you have always tried to do for yourself on your own unaided willpower and letting Him do for you what you’ve never been able to do for yourself, which is remove those character defects. So, these are very humbling steps but we have to do the work of looking inward and taking an inventory.
Like, if you owned a grocery store, you know if you don’t take inventory on a regular basis, you’re going to have a lot of crappy stuff on the shelves. It’s going to be expired, right? So, you do this with a lot of compassion and kindness, but thoroughness because you got to go through and go, “Okay. This tomato’s rotten, not worth selling. Got to check it out.” So, it sounds like, “Well, this is going to be like really painful and stuff.” And in a way, I’ll just be honest, it can be that way a little bit as you do the work but on the other side of it is just great benefit.
Brad Johnson: On that Ian, Shawn and myself just did a 360 review. It’s been a few months back but basically asking questions to our people that knew us best on the team and have worked beside us like, “Hey, what are our blind spots? What do we miss?”
Ian Cron: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: I will say that’s not a fun read. It’s not fun to read like, “Hey, here are your blind spots that you walk through life.” But at the end of the day, would you rather they remain blind spots and you’re just walking around oblivious or would you rather know them so you can address them and continue to grow and level up as a human? I mean, those are your choices in life, right?
Ian Cron: Yeah. And our mutual friend, Michael Hyatt, I quote him in the book because he said something to me once that really stuck. He said, “The one thing that stands between you and the best version of yourself is the truth.”
Brad Johnson: So good. Yeah.
Ian Cron: Right? And so, this is the point where we’re really going to look inward and we’re going to go about the business of looking for the truth about ourselves and then relying on our higher power, however you choose to define it. Now, you know I have a particular spiritual orientation, we’ve talked about it before, but I don’t force my ideas about who God is on anybody, right? And frankly, I’ve seen God work in the lives of people who don’t share my worldview and I don’t know how that works. It’s not my business. That’s way above my pay grade. All I know is that when people do this, whether they are people of faith or not, I’m like, that’s a mystery. I don’t know how it works. When you get to 8 and 9, now you’re going to mend your relationship with others.
So, remember 1 to 3? I’m going to amend my relationship. I’m going to become a spiritual person. I’m going to live on a spiritual basis now, not on an ego basis. Then in 4 through 7, you’re going to amend your relationship with yourself, and then 8 and 9 you’re going to amend your relationship with others.
Brad Johnson: Ian, I might have missed a few because I wrote down ‘Fearless Inventory’ but you might have rapid-fired 4, 5, 6, and 7. Do you mind?
Ian Cron: Yeah, I didn’t read them for the sake of time but if you’d like me to, I can.
Brad Johnson: If you don’t mind just so everybody kind of can piece them together.
Ian Cron: Sure. So, 4 was made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Five is admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Six is we’re entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. And then 7 is humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Brad Johnson: Cool. Thank you.
Ian Cron: Yeah. Now, 8 is made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. And then 9 is made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. So, I mean, I love this, man. To be happy in this world is complicated, right, because happiness is actually isn’t something you can achieve. People say to me all the time, “I just want to be happy.” And I’m like, “Stop it.” I do a Bob Newhart. I go, “Stop it.” Because honestly, you actually can’t get happiness, right? You can’t achieve happiness. Happiness is a byproduct of other pursuits. And this is what I’m talking about here, right?
Happiness is a byproduct of having a relationship with a power greater than yourself. It’s a product of having done internal work and owning what’s yours and cleaning. And then it’s also a product of living peacefully with other people and where you have outstanding debts that need to be reconciled. You know, to me, this is just a very simple formula for living your best life. Really, it’s pretty basic.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Arthur Brooks, I had a conversation with him who literally teaches a class on happiness. He talks about it more like a continuum because people like, “Oh, there’s a destination happiness. I want to arrive there and just set up shop,” right? And he’s like, “Well, there’s happiness. There’s unhappiness. You can’t have happiness without unhappiness. It’s like the opposite side of the coin.” So, it’s almost like this continuum where you can make choices in your life that are going to set you up more down the path of happiness, which a lot of these 12 steps just seem like, “Hey, you want to be headed in the direction of happiness? Here’s a way to kind of give yourself a better chance to get there.” Am I saying that right? Or would you think about that differently?
Ian Cron: No, you absolutely are. And I think what Arthur would agree with is that a component of happiness is what’s called equanimity. And equanimity could be defined as the ability to maintain emotional balance in the face of whatever life throws at you. Now, alright, so you had a more difficult week this week, right?
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Let’s talk about it. My son, my 14-year-old who’s quite the athlete, broke his ankle last Thursday in a football game. So, we’ve been dealing with that surgery yesterday. So, yeah, it’s been tough.
Ian Cron: Yeah. The goal is it’s not a happy week, but how do I maintain emotional and spiritual balance in the face of this moment where I’m not thrown off the beam? I’m like, “Okay. So, now this.” And we walk into that with a calmness and a clarity and a compassion and a curiosity and a creativity, all these wonderful things that the 12 steps generate and put into our lives. It’s like it’s a toolbox, man. So, let me give you an example of how I would like let’s say that happened to me this week. So, I work the steps every day, and I love what my sponsor said to me and says, “You know, once you work long enough, the numbers fall away and you’re just doing them reflexively,” right? It’s like you’re not going, “Okay. This is step one.” It’s like, no, that kind of all falls away and it just works itself into your bones and blood, right? You’re just doing it.
And so, if I were in your situation this past week, I might say, “Okay. I admit that I am powerless over what has happened to my son. I can’t fix his ankle. I can’t fix my crying wife about it. You know, I can’t. I’m powerless here. And hopefully, it’s not making my life unmanageable but I got some tools to make sure it doesn’t. And then I believe that I’ve got a higher power that can restore me or keep me sane in the middle of all this. So, I’m just going to turn my will and my life and my son’s ankle and my wife’s upset and all the other stuff over to God’s care.” And you just can’t believe that when you do this stuff, it sounds so basic but it works. That’s the thing. It works. And I got the lives of tens of millions of people in the sample pool to show you this works, right?
Because you’re talking about groups of people who every time someone broke an ankle, they went and got a bottle of Jim Beam and disappeared for three days. You know what I’m saying? And they don’t do that anymore. They just don’t do it anymore. And I can go to any other addiction that we might have.
So, that’s 8 and 9. And then 10 through 12 is pretty simple. Ten is continued to take personal inventory. When we were wrong, we promptly admitted it. Eleven was sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. And then 12 is having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps. We tried to carry this message to blanket fellow sufferers, our fellow human beings, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. So, 10 through 12 is really just about developing a lifestyle and using a set of practices that will promote health and growth in each of those first three domains of your life, your relationship with God, with self, and with others. And so, these are called maintenance steps, like how do I maintain this life called the 12 steps.
And so, I like to sort of equate the 12 steps with a trellis. So, I got a trellis. My wife grows flowers, right? And so, we have a trellis in the backyard, and the trellis is just a structure on which things can grow and be supported as they grow so they don’t fall over, right? And the 12 steps is like– it’s just a trellis. It’s not a set of rules. It doesn’t– in fact, Bill Wilson, who wrote them, calls them suggestions, right? I love that.
He’s not saying here are the rules. He’s like, here’s a group of suggestions that we have found to be really helpful in helping people live the lives that they are meant to live without being tyrannized by addictions and behaviors that dominate them and control them. And I mean, again, like I said, this is something that a soccer mom who’s just addicted to people pleasing can use or somebody who is a workaholic, whatever it is, all the way to somebody who’s got a two quarter a day problem with alcohol, right? So, everybody on the continuum can benefit. Everybody.
Brad Johnson: So, number 10, take personal inventory. I think you said you’re wrong. Or maybe, where you wronged others and then admit it. To me, that sounds like apologize because I feel like oftentimes, when you don’t close the loop, there’s this pain that continues and probably once again is where those addictions come in. It’s like, oh, ease the pain. So, is an apology a too simple way to put step number 10?
Ian Cron: So, typically, and I go into all this in detail in the book and I really help people. I give them the questions. I go right down to the weeds to make it very, very practical for them. So, every night, I’ve been taught in my program to do a 10-step inventory. Every night. It’s so fast. So, it’s not like a big deal.
I just ask myself a couple of questions, like just tell you what they are, super fast. And I reflect on the day and I ask these questions. Was I resentful? Was I dishonest? Did I properly admit when I was wrong today? Do I owe anybody an apology? Did I do something today out of fear? Have I kept something to myself which should be discussed with somebody else at once? Did I think today of all I could do for others? Was I kind and loving towards all? Did I reach out to someone in recovery or to someone who’s not doing well in life, like you if you’re having a tough week to see how they were doing? And then, finally, did I take time to connect with God through prayer or meditation?
So, I just kind of go through those 10. Doesn’t take me forever. And that tells me, okay, how do I course correct tomorrow. Is there someone I owe an apology to? Do I need to have a conversation with somebody about something I’m holding in secret that’s not healthy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? And so, it’s a continual process of self-examination. And by the way, all great religious traditions, whether it’s Christianity or Judaism, they encourage this kind of self-reflection. In fact, the Stoics earlier than Christianity were talking about the importance of self-reflection, like just doing an honest inventory of what’s going on inside and making the proper course corrections.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. I was talking about this the other day. Actually, on a podcast, I did honor a friend that lost too soon, a guy named John Ruhlin. I don’t know. Did you ever connect with John Ruhlin?
Ian Cron: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brad Johnson: And one of the things that came to mind with him, he was just a great human. And it was a story I heard about John Wooden, where a guy said, “When I leave your presence, I feel like I’m a better man.” That was the statement they made to John Wooden before he passed away. And those questions, if you live those on the daily, am I resentful? Was I dishonest? Did I admit when I was wrong? Is there anybody I need to apologize that I act out of fear? Is there anything I need to admit to others? And there’s a couple I missed, but that seems like a pretty dang good standard to live by in life to make sure you’re showing up as the best version of yourself.
And I’m curious because you’ve been practicing this since 1987 on the daily. I mean, have there ever been days where you’re like, oh, nailed it. Like, today was a perfect day. Or is it pretty common that it’s like, there’s another shortfall, there’s another shortfall. Like, how does that play out when you’ve been practicing it for as long as you have?
Ian Cron: It’s interesting because I work by myself at home, right? And so, honestly, I don’t have as much contact with people as I’d like on a daily basis. I think if I was working in an office where there were a ton of people around, I would probably have a lot more problems just because that’s the nature of being human. You get into a social context and the best part of you doesn’t always come out.
So, some nights, it’s a pretty quick inventory. I find, I wasn’t really dishonest today, but if you really do, was I honest with myself? Like, when you get into it, it’s sometimes you can get into kind of interesting angles on it, right? Like, was I resentful toward me today? Did I beat myself up for stuff that just was too hard? So, was I kind of loving toward my wife? Was I impatient? Was I whatever?
So, everybody has a different milieu in which they find themselves every day. And so, you just apply the questions as they come. Some days, I hit it out of the park. Other days, I’m like, oh, crap, I got a call so and so, and I got to do this. And so, there’s a story in the book I tell. Here’s a classic story. So, most mornings, particularly when the weather is warm here in Nashville, I go to my favorite coffee shop. And one day, I was in a mood, as they say in the south, man. I was in a mood.
And my knee hurt because I like to run, but my knee was acting up. And then I was under deadline for a book chapter and I just was like, not behind the eight ball. So, I go to this coffee shop to get my cortado. That’s my little daily fix that’s not so bad. And so, when I get there, there’s a new barista and for some reason, she just is talking to everybody in line, like often happens in the south. Like, “Hey, honey, how you doing? And what’s going on?” And the line is out the door, right? Now, I’m a New Yorker, okay? So, I’m a little bit like, okay, we got to speed this up here. Okay? We do not have time for you to interview everybody about the kids and their dogs and their…
Brad Johnson: This is where your mom’s Enneagram 8 started to flare up below.
Ian Cron: Oh, man, boy, it sure did. So, anyway, I get up to her in line. I’ve been in line for, like 20 minutes, and now, I’m really kind of in a not such a great space. And she says to me, she says, “What can I get you, honey?” Which is, I don’t like being called honey by somebody who’s 30 years younger than me. And I’m a little bit like, okay, I said, “I’d like a cortado.” And she holds up the milk and she goes, “How would you like it?” I went, “I’d like it today.” It just came out of my mouth. I couldn’t stop it, you know what I mean? And she just kind of looked. And then when she handed me my coffee, she said, “Have a nice day, jackass.” And I was like…
Brad Johnson: Oh, that Southern sweetness wore off pretty quickly.
Ian Cron: Oh, man, well, yeah, really best. So, anyway, I get in my car and I’m in a really bad mood now. Now, I’m torqued, right? So, I call my sponsor, and for people who are listening, in a 12 Step community, you often have a sponsor, which is someone who walks you through the steps when you first come in, and then they just serve as an advisor. Like, just someone you call when life gets a little bumpy, right?
And so, anyway, I call him and I was like, just rip and mad. And he goes, “Do you think this is an opportunity to take a 10th step?” And I went– which means, is this a good opportunity for you to turn your car around and go back and apologize to that woman, right? And you know what? I turned my car around. I went back to the coffee shop. I walked in. Thankfully, the crowd was gone. And I said, “Hey, I just want you to know I acted like a jerk here a few minutes ago. And I’m really sorry. Can I make it up to you somehow?”
And she just got puddly, like, teary eyed and she said, “Oh, my gosh, I was in a bad mood, too.” And next thing I know, I find out her name is Felicity, and I hear a little bit of her back story and I walk out with a free cortado, my second of the day. And this is just how we should be in the world, right, Brad? It’s just like, we should be this way in the world and be people that are spreading goodness and kindness and always trying to clean our side of the street, not somebody else’s. I didn’t have to get in her face about her behavior. I just had to own mine, clean my side of the street, and get on with the business of life. And that’s what the 12 steps have taught me to do.
Brad Johnson: It’s interesting, the timing of this conversation, because this last week has been one of the hardest ever in my life. And I feel like having a kid hurt is just rough, especially level he was. And it’s been tough on Sarah as well. And your story on the coffee shop, there was a couple of days back, I was just like, I was sad. I was pissed. I was everything, hurting. And I just had this brief moment in time where I thought, like, man, I really hope nobody, like, kind of comes at me today because I’m not sure I can handle it today.
This is like the fuse is short today and that conversation just reminds me and my last week reminds me we don’t always know other people’s stuff. Like, they’re showing up. They’re not super happy. We’re having a great normal day. They might have had like the worst week of their life or the worst day of their life. And we don’t always know their stuff. And just this way to walk through life with empathy of like, hey, just because they’re not happy-go-lucky, I don’t know what they’ve been through today.
Is there a way that the 12 steps kind of can help you stay aware of that? I mean, obviously, you’re looking internally at you, but as you’re interacting with people on a daily, is there a way that you go about framing like, hey, I don’t always know what’s going on with them, so I shouldn’t make these assumptions?
Ian Cron: Listen, man, my sponsor is a funny guy, right? He’s from East Tennessee and he’s been in the program for 40 years.
Brad Johnson: Wow.
Ian Cron: And he is so smart and so funny. And one day, I was talking to him about somebody I was mad at about an interaction that made me mad. And he looked at me and he goes, “You know, Ian,” he’s got this thick country accent. He goes, “You know, Ian, you need to give up the old idea that you know what just happened.” And I was like, “That is genius.” See, I had interpreted that interaction in one way and he said, “You don’t actually know what happened. You don’t know what was going on inside of that person. You don’t know the day that they had before you had that conversation that went sideways. You don’t know the kind of day they had.”
And there’s always more to the story than the story you’re telling yourself. And so, one of the things the steps have taught me is we talk about this a lot in meetings, right? It’s like love and tolerance towards all. That is our code. Love and tolerance towards all. And I have found that as I’ve done the 12 steps, a byproduct of just doing them has been a greater level of empathy and understanding that we’re all hurting.
I just don’t know the story behind the hurt. And so, I’ve learned– someone wants to ask me the question, “How do you know when you’re doing well spiritually?” And I said, “I’m just not easily offended. I don’t get offended. I don’t take things personally.” And to me, that’s a sign of real spiritual health. And I learned that from the 12 steps.
Brad Johnson: I’m just not easily offended. I like that. That’s a great message for what’s going on in the world. I love it.
Ian Cron: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Brad Johnson: With all the politics flying around and yeah, people are so easily offended these days.
Ian Cron: Yeah. And they’re so reactive without thinking. I mean, the reason people judge is because they’re too lazy to think, right? That’s just how it is. People default to judgment when they’re too lazy to think. And so, the steps have taught me how to be a thinker, not a judger.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, that’s some, and you’re dropping some wisdom bombs here today, my man. You must have had one of those cortados or two of them this morning.
Ian Cron: I had two. I had two at 6:30 this morning at the Ugly Mug.
Brad Johnson: Love it. Well, you said something a while back. And one of the things that I think is your gift, the more that I get to know you, you’ve seen these frameworks that bettered you. And you’re better off because of it. And honestly, when I first read The Road Back to You, I know the Enneagram. I feel like it made it surround it, kind of through the church community. Sarah and I’ve talked to our therapist, Megan, about it, and she’s aware of it.
So, I’m guessing in some of the therapist communities where you do personal assessment tests, you kind of get rid of those blind spots. But I really feel like it wasn’t on the map as far as the world, the general population, like you said Enneagram must be like, what’s that? I’ve never heard of it. And your work helped put that on the map. You weren’t the only one, but you were definitely a big voice in that community.
And now, what I feel like The Fix is doing, obviously, those 12 steps have helped a ton of people live better versions of themselves, and I feel like this might be the next big thing to put this on the map to where those that haven’t gotten to the point where they’ve gone to a meeting to personally like inject themselves directly in contact with the 12 steps, this is, I feel like, a way to take this a little bit more mainstream of like here is a methodology and a framework, they can create a better version of you if you’re willing to jump in and try. How much crossover do you see with The Road Back to You and Enneagram, and then the Story Back to You, and The Fix, like do you feel like similar idea in your head as far as this needs to get out to the world? Was that some of the motivation behind it?
Ian Cron: Yeah. So, the other day– not the other day, actually, several months ago, someone asked me a question that threw me back in my heels. And because I do a lot of consulting and coaching, whenever I hear a great question, I write it down, right? And the question was, “Why were you born?” And I was like, “What? That’s an amazing question.” Why were you born?
And my answer was, I was born to introduce people to ideas and experiences that deepen and improve their lives. And that was the Enneagram, that was in the Story of You. That was in my first novel, Chasing Francis. It’s just a pattern in my life. I just love introducing people to things that have changed my life. So, I’m not just coming in like the expert. It’s like, no, this changed my life, can’t wait to share it.
And so, in that sense, this book is a very natural next step in my life. And like I said, I’m always going to do Enneagram coaching and teaching and workshops and companies and doing all that because I love that, too. But I have other parts of my life that I wanted to share, and this one seemed really timely and urgent because I feel like, hey man, if this can deepen and improve people’s lives, then it’s my job to put it out there in the best, most consumable fashion.
Brad Johnson: Well, I promise it will, because I know the quality of work you do. And I’m excited to be able to actually grab the book and read the whole thing. This has been a good precursor. I’m excited to be able to do that. As we see the clock over here, it’s kind of ticking away, we went through the 12 steps, but is there another story that you think might resonate with the audience as far as just the power of the 12 steps? Or maybe it even like takes one of those 12 steps and just makes it that much more easy to grasp. Anything come to mind?
Ian Cron: Yeah. So, ultimately, and this is something that came right from Bill Wilson, the author of The 12 Steps, which have now been around probably almost 90 years.
Brad Johnson: Can you give us a quick– was Bill Wilson the guy that created Alcoholics Anonymous? Or how did this become a thing?
Ian Cron: So, Bill Wilson was a hopeless alcoholic. He was a stockbroker in New York City, and he was a hopeless alcoholic. He was in the hospital dying of alcoholism. Remember back then, if you were an alcoholic, you were deemed hopeless and you were pretty much going to die, like that’s just how it went.
Brad Johnson: Sometimes, they actually checked you in to facilities, didn’t they? Almost like a…
Ian Cron: Yeah, like asylums, just to try and stop.
Brad Johnson: What year was this? How far back?
Ian Cron: In the 1930s.
Brad Johnson: 30s, okay.
Ian Cron: Yeah. And so, Wilson, I won’t go into all the details, but a guy came to his room and shared with him some ideas about how he had gotten free from being a compulsive alcohol. And it derived from a Christian organization called the Oxford Movement, the Oxford Group in New York City. And they were a Christian organization. They had six steps. And this guy had experienced a profound spiritual awakening as a result of doing those six steps. He told Bill about. Bill, then, expanded the steps to 12 and then gave birth to Alcoholics Anonymous, which is now, can you imagine, the ground zero of that thing is like five or six people in a room not knowing that tens of millions of people would be changed as a result of what they were doing.
And anyway, it’s a spiritual program. Like Wilson says, “Look, the answer is spiritual in nature. It’s not just psychology. It’s really the solution is a spiritual awakening. That’s what’s going to free you.” So, the story I tell in the book, as an example, is my son Aidan, and you’ll appreciate this because you got kids, right? When he was about a year and a half old or two years old, he was in the bathtub one day, and I was giving him a bath and I realized I didn’t have a towel. So, I ran out to the linen closet really fast to get it. In the 45 seconds between the time that I went to the linen closet and came back, my little boy had taken an epic poo in the tub.
Now, people have had to experience this before if they’ve had children, right? Or they’ve at least heard this of happening, right? And of course, he realized, and by the way, it was like the Exxon Valdez spill. It was not a good deal, right? And I get back there and he realized he had caused an environmental disaster, too. So, he had been picking this stuff up, and then it gets on his hands and then he tries to wipe his hands up on his hair and then he wipes it on the walls and the tile in the bathroom. He’s a mess, right?
So, what was going on there? Aidan had a problem and he was trying to fix himself. You see what I mean? And the more he tried to fix himself, the more a mess he made of his life. What he needed was somebody outside him to come along and extricate him and disentangle him from his problems. He could not do it for himself. And I think that’s a beautiful story. Granted, it’s a little scatological.
However, it’s also a really great illustration for what happens in these steps, right? You kind of come to this place in your life where you’re like, I’ve got a mess on my hands here. I’ve tried everything in my power to fix it, but I’ve only made more of a mess or I’ve just not been able to do it. And so, now, I’ve relinquished power and said to someone greater than me. And I surrender to that power. And that power is now doing for me what I couldn’t do for myself, namely getting my life together. And I’m just telling you, Brad, if I didn’t have all the evidence, I wouldn’t be this confident, but if people work those steps, they will have that experience. And to me, that story kind of encapsulates the whole deal.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. How long did it take for you for those 12 steps to become a habit for you where it was just part of– you said earlier it was part of your blood and bones. Was that a year in? Was it once? Like, how did that evolve?
Ian Cron: Well, pretty quickly, you just start to develop habits and a new way of seeing the world. I don’t know if I could put a time on it. I can say that, in the beginning, you actually do them in order and you are thinking, I’m working step one right now, I’m working step three, and I’m working step four. I’m doing all the stuff I’m supposed to do in order to achieve completion of that step and I’m moving on to the next one.
But eventually, once you’ve done them once and you do them multiple times in your life, you start over again and just go deeper layer, deeper layer, deeper layer every time. But I would say, after the first year and doing those steps and eventually, I did find myself just naturally doing things I didn’t do before that really made sense of my life that, because I’d organize my life around those steps.
Brad Johnson: So, different curiosity I have here, actually, it’s funny, I didn’t plan on this, but I’m in my basement where I’ve been doing the podcast here a bit until we get moved into the new office. And I remember when we first met out in Blackberry, my wife asked you a question because our kids were much smaller then, kind of let me think. So probably like six, five, four, maybe one. So kind of right in the thick of it. And you have a quote that has stuck with me that you quoted from Viktor Frankl. Between stimulus and response, there is a space if you allow there to be one. And you’ve mentioned most people, it’s the crack on a sidewalk. But if you give yourself space that allows for that personal growth where you’re showing up, how you choose to, right, like you’re thinking about it versus reacting.
And my wife asked you a question, “How do I create more space?” Because sometimes when it’s going down, it’s just this natural, like kids, like we got to do this or that. And you had mentioned that you and your wife had a daily meditation practice where you meditated in the same room. I think in the morning, if I remember right. In this room I’m in right now, after that conversation, my wife Sarah and I, probably for almost a solid year, we’d wake up in the morning and there on headspace and it was started at like short 10 minutes and eventually, it was 20 minutes daily. And I remember it was just like such an intimate, not physically, but just in the same space. And it really was such a growth thing in our marriage.
And so, first off, thank you, because that came from your share. But back to the 12 steps, how much of your meditation practice, was it the 12 steps, and then meditation? Was it meditation and 12 steps? Were those intertwined? What did that look like? And how would you think about that?
Ian Cron: So, I started meditation probably in the early 90s, and so, I was well into a 12-step journey at that point. And of course, remember, step 11 begins sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God. And so, meditation, I mean, this talk about ahead of his time, right? Like Bill Wilson was like just really a pretty amazing thinker and very insightful.
A regular meditation practice, we just know from research that what it can do is open that space so that you have the ability to take a pause. It’s interesting, Anne and I like to watch British television shows, right? We watch a lot of British mysteries and the whole thing. And there’s a British police show called the Blue Lights that I really like. And in it, there’s an older cop training a younger cop, right? And they’re about to crash through a door where they believe there’s a guy on the other side with a gun and a guy or they suspect.
And so, the older guy says to the younger guy, as he’s about to go through the door. He goes, “Take a pause.” And they could go, tell him, like, “What?” And he goes, “Knock and take a pause.” And the word is take a beat. He goes, “Take a beat.” And I’m like, what meditation has allowed me to do is to stop bursting through doors and take a peek. It’s like just opening up that space, so that I’m responding to life, just not reacting mindlessly, but I’m moving thoughtfully and/or mindfully through life.
And my practice is, it’s fairly regular, but I miss my days. And when I miss that day, I can tell that I’m often out over my skis. You know what I mean? Like, I’m going too fast downhill and I’m out over my skis and I’m just not as mindful. And I think people in business, people in every sphere of life can benefit from this because we need to learn how to take a beat a lot. Don’t shoot off that email. Don’t talk too fast. Stop. Take a beat. Listen. Reflect. Just be a person that isn’t banging guardrail to guardrail through everybody’s life because you’re not thinking. So, I think that’s a really, really valuable tool. And actually. It’s science based, evidential stuff. It’s like, yeah, it’s clear that that’s what it does.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. And I’ve found the invention of the iPhone or the smartphone has actually, in my opinion, made it even more important. But I mean, because we’re constantly stimulated if we allow ourselves to be throughout the day as opposed to like giving yourself space to unplug.
Ian Cron: So, we didn’t even get into a conversation about technology addictions. We could have– okay, so that’s…
Brad Johnson: That whole point, we left that one out. Yeah, let’s get that.
Ian Cron: I mean, so now we’re surrounded by technologies where in a really kind of way that feels nefarious to me. Those algorithms and the way those things are set up are designed, intentionally designed. TikTok is intentionally designed to addict young people to scrolling and to being on their phone constantly. So, there’s a kind of– I thought that I don’t like the word evil, but there’s like people are out there who have a vested interest in making sure that you become an addict to whatever it is that they’re hawking to you, right?
And so, people have technology. In fact, now in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, you can go to rehab and get insurance for gaming addictions, right? Just being a gamer. Like, you just can’t stop doing, I don’t know, what the names of these different games are, but think about all the people who have like secret sports betting addictions, like gambling addictions, people who have– yeah, the list is endless of the stuff that we get hooked to.
Brad Johnson: Have you seen the documentary The Social Dilemma?
Ian Cron: Oh, yeah.
Brad Johnson: Have you seen that? Here’s what’s crazy. You just made something quick. You think about a drug dealer. How does a drug dealer make money? Well, the first hits free, and then that’s addicting and boom. And if you think about these apps, most of them are free. You download them, obviously, there’s paid or whatever.
But if you actually look at the business model behind the app Facebook, the more you look and scroll, the more ads they can sell, therefore, the more money they can make. Same with Tik-tok. So, it’s actually just like a technology drug dealer. If I get them hooked, I can make more money. And it’s pretty crazy because I think most parents, we’re dealing with it right now. Actually, it’s crazy, my son, Sarah literally just told me, he’s like, “Mom, can I have TikTok?” Because, of course, he’s been laid up for a week. And we’re like, “No, you can’t, unfortunately.” But I think it’s really important to think through this as a parent, like, it’s just a different form of addiction.
Ian Cron: It absolutely is, because it’s compulsive, it has a mood-altering effect, and it has negative consequences. I had a breakfast this morning with a guy and we were just talking about technology and what a big problem it’s become in his house, okay? And what he described to me was a situation in which they’re not kids and parents aren’t talking. They’re siloed off and they’re not connecting. And adults are being pumped full of misinformation about all kinds of things.
We know for a fact that the mental health crisis that so many younger people are experiencing now is a direct result. Just look at Jonathan Haidt’s talks, you know what I mean? And it’s pretty stunning. And it’s having a negative consequence and they can’t stop. We can’t stop. We can’t stop looking at the news. We can’t stop looking at sports, scores. We can’t stop looking at– and part of it is the way that the apps and these different things are set up. They are addictive.
So, everybody, and we get a dopamine hit from them every time you look at it, the colors, everything else. They are studying brain science to make sure they nail you. So, dude, I’m just saying, these are worse. As a friend of mine likes to say, you’re always one click away from a new addiction. And so, we have to be more mindful and these steps can help us break free of so many of these patterns in our lives that take us hostage and then we end up being enslaved to them.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. Well, Ian, I know you’re almost on to your next thing. I just want to say thank you. Every time we have a conversation, number one, I always learn something. I just love being curious and being in your presence and just riffing on whatever we riff on. So, thank you for always, like you truly do make me a better version of myself. So, I appreciate the time for the conversation and I am so excited for the new book. I know it’s going to help a ton of people out there.
And once that thing goes live, let’s get connected, and we’ll give some books away to those listening in. It’s just unfortunately, not till January 28th, but if you find a way to get me some before, let me know and we’ll make sure we get some of the listeners out there.
Ian Cron: Well, in fact, people can preorder it now on Amazon. You can just go on Amazon, preorder it. That way, they’ll be sure to get a copy at the lowest price when it drops on January 28th. And if they go to IanMorganCron.com/GetYourDownload, all they have to do, and they’ll get instructions, is show proof that they’ve downloaded the book. I mean, they’ve already preordered it and they’ll get Chapter 1 to get going before anybody else has a chance to see it. And yeah, so they can preorder now and it’s such a help to me because if you do preorder, I’m just being honest, right, like it changes Amazon’s algorithms and then it just makes the book appear more and more as it goes along, which it’s so hard to get a book into the mainstream. And so, every little bit helps and I’m appreciative of people preordering.
Brad Johnson: Well, I’m excited to help on that mission because it’s definitely a mission for helping, and this shows about helping advisors. Actually, I just got a review the other day. They said, “Hey, doing business, doing life, I’m an advisor, but my wife loves the show too, because it’s about the life side.” So, I think we’ve hit all over that today. So, hopefully, we help a few people out there. And if you’re out there struggling with an addiction, well, you have some steps to help and now you have a book that can help, too. So, Ian, thanks as always. And any parting thoughts on just doing business, doing life? I know you’ve given us a definition or two along the way, but maybe as it results or as it relates to The Fix.
Ian Cron: I mean, we’ve covered a lot of territory in this conversation. It’s been so rich and I’m so appreciative of our friendship and of the wonderful times we’ve had working together in the past. And I think this whole idea of doing business and doing life is such a brilliant hybrid way of thinking about the way our lives can’t be compartmentalized or siloed. They have to be interconnected. And so, I just thank you for everything that you’ve done and continue to do and for creating a space where people can think at a higher level than just, how do I succeed? But to think more broadly about the whole of life because success in one area is no guarantee that you are successful in them all.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. All right, brother. Well, hey, always appreciate our time together. And good luck with the book launch. I know it’s going to be a massive hit and going to help a lot of people. So, till next time.
Ian Cron: Thanks, Brad.
