Brad Johnson: Welcome back to another episode of Do Business. Do Life. This is a first-ever. So, we have Christa Hardin as a guest today. And I also have my wife, Sarah. So, this ought to be exciting. We were joking, Christa. This might just be a therapy session live that we throw out on the Internet. We’ll see how it goes today.
Christa Hardin: I love it. Let’s do this, guys.
Brad Johnson: Well, cool. Well, a little bit of context as we dive in. Anybody that’s been listening to the show knows we’re big fans of the Enneagram, have had past guest, Ian Cron, who is a mutual friend, and that was actually Sarah and I’s first introduction into the Enneagram. So, for those that aren’t familiar, I was in a mastermind with Michael Hyatt. He did a little marriage retreat, brought Ian in as a guest, and proceeded to just blow our minds as we dove into his book, The Road Back to You. And that was really my first introduction. I’d done a lot of personality assessments when it comes to business, but this one just hit different. I don’t know if there’s, you know, I just feel like the Enneagram hits different than everything else.
And at the time, Sarah and I had been married for ten years and I feel like I learned more about her in two days than I had our prior ten years, just her communication style. And so, I was just kind of hooked on the Enneagram. And from there, it led to business and Triad. And that’s a big part of how we work with our members and also our team. Everybody on the team when they join takes the Enneagram. So, it’s been a massive culture builder as well. So, Chris, on your side, I just love to hear your journey because, I mean, you were a therapist and then Enneagram, and now you’ve written a book, have a podcast on it. So, love to hear that from you.
Christa Hardin: Yeah. Thanks, guys. I love hearing how you guys found your marriage just lit up after you discovered this tool. And as you can imagine, I found the same thing and I found it also through the Michael Hyatt-Ian Kron connection because I had moved into the coaching realm along with my therapy and I own a counseling practice as well as therapists and coaches. And so, I loved, when I took the test, discovered I’m a type 7, but then like a 7, I moved on quickly from it until my friend, who is a type 4 very deep diver, for those who already know this test, she said, “Christa, your couples work would benefit so much from going back and digging deeper.” And she’s just one of the best therapists I know, one of my dearest friends from grad school.
So, of course, I went and looked back and I haven’t looked away since almost ten years ago. And I really found that not only did it open up our marriage beyond the typical general marriage expectations and tools, but it also opened up my clients from the very beginning in ways that were profound. And it was just such a gorgeous tool to add on to the array of tools I was already using in the family systems world. So, that’s why I haven’t looked back. And then, of course, you can imagine I discovered let’s do bigger. So, I needed an Instagram, then I needed a podcast. Now, I’ve got counseling, coaches, training all over the world with it. So, it’s been a lot of fun and I have a book published with it now as well, so it’s all in one spot. So, yeah, it’s just a great tool so I’m so glad you guys found this as a group and as a couple.
Brad Johnson: You went all in?
Christa Hardin: Yes.
Brad Johnson: Us 7s tend to do that when we get interested in something. So, Sarah’s a type 6. I’m a type 7. And for some, this might be the first time they’ve ever heard of the Enneagram. So, would you mind just kind of high level, what is the Enneagram? What are the different types? How does it work? You cool with just giving us a quick run-through?
Christa Hardin: Yeah, absolutely. For those who are looking to figure out what this is, it’s similar to other personality measures in the sense that you’re going to learn about nine types today and the behavioral aspects of each one. But the Enneagram, as you alluded to, digs deeper. And that’s what I think really gets most of us and hooks us is that it looks not only at motivation or the behaviors, but the deeper hurts and wounds. And it allows people to understand their partners, their coworkers on just a deeper dive level so that there’s more compassion, more love, more grace. And we also get to see one another’s gifts more boldly as well.
So, it’s a great test, but it’s actually more than a test. It’s a tool. And I just want to encourage anyone who runs out to take an Enneagram test that it’s also important to sit with the results of that test so that you know that it’s really talking about you. Many times, we take a test in a certain mood and we just need to instead read about the nine types, learn about them, and then see which one feels like it’s kind of reading your mail. Is that what your, guys, experience was?
Brad Johnson: What was yours?
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. My experience?
Brad Johnson: Yeah. The first time.
Sarah Johnson: Well, I think when we went through them all, everybody, when you’re talking about your own number, you just felt a little bit shameful because we were thinking about that one, that bad part of the number. And also, when it was sharing of our partners, it was light bulbs went off. It was like, “Ah, that’s why that happened so that’s why he thinks that way or does that thing.” So, yeah, like you said, empathy. Yes, 100%.
Christa Hardin: That’s so good. Not just, “Yeah, that’s him. He does that,” but, “Oh, here’s why I love how you said that.” And that just gave you that sense for him of even deeper love but I also love how you brought up, Sarah, how it just caused that little bit of shame because, usually, we have that fundamental attribution error that I shared about at the Triad event we were all at launch was amazing. And you guys just really just drank it up because we all get that sense of, “Yes, I think I’m fundamentally a little bit healthier than my partner most of the time,” and that they’re just a little bit more messed up than me. And when we look at the Enneagram, we’re like, “Okay, we’re all screwed up,” but we also all have gifts. So, that’s beautiful that you had a little bit of both of those experiences.
Sarah Johnson: Definitely. Yeah.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. The reading the male part for sure. And I have a question because the test that Ian recommended was pretty in-depth and we’ve had some of our Triad members where they’re like, “Oh, Enneagram, I’ll go see what my number is,” and they just google it, and find some free test online and then it’s like, “You’re like these eight numbers,” and it like doesn’t actually give them a one. So, like how do you decipher what tests people should take? I mean, are there certain ones that go more in-depth a little bit more like a therapist or psychologist would? Or are all of them created equal out there?
Christa Hardin: I think that people find the Enneagram in different ways, but a good way to really assess well is to take a test and to find some supplemental reading material to see if it fits. So, in that case, any test, but which ones I would say are the best would be Enneagram Institute, the iEQ9, which Ian Cron recommends. Also Truity.com, I’m affiliated with them. They test almost a million people every month and they’re excellent because they also have some other measures. But I really love their Enneagram because I know and I think you might have even been referencing this just now, there is a pie chart that comes with it, but it shows you how much you are of each type.
And that’s a very rich space for any coach to digest with you because when we find out our clients’ least likely Enneagram types, that tells us a lot in the ways they need to grow. And when we see, “Oh, your top type is an 8, but you also are very high in 1 and 3,” honestly, those three tend to run together, they’re very strong, powerful types, we get to assess further together or you and your partner can assess further together. Okay. Truity gave me a pie chart. I am going to dig deeper to see which one of these resonates most, which one feels most like my gift, and like somebody was reading my mail on my secrets too. So, yeah, that’s what I recommend.
Brad Johnson: Cool. So, for those that are now listening in and they’re like, “Enneagram, what the heck is this? I’ve never heard of it. It sounds like there’s nine different types,” do you mind just kind of a rapid-fire? Obviously, they can go deeper after this conversation, but like we go 1 through 9, high level, how would you describe the types?
Christa Hardin: I would say that, again, you will be looking to see yourself in more than one type. So, as I think these through with you, allow yourself to see, yes, there’s a few that probably settle somewhat with you, but which one settles the most with you? So, the type 1 is somebody who refines and really looks at details and wants to make sure that things are improved in the world. You just always see the errors and it’s so good because you help people to notice when things are going wrong. If you’re a type 2, you’re a giver to the point that you can do it so beautifully that you are shining in the world, but also to your own detriment at times because you’re over giving. And so, you might know yourself, “Oh, yeah, I give so much and I’m such a helper and that’s my favorite role but it’s also a lot at times.”
Now, if you’re a 3, you’re also a giver, but your ways of giving are more achievement and goal-oriented spaces. There’s a lot of heart there but also a lot of thinking, plotting, planning, and executing. And that can, of course, lead to great results, but also some burnout. And the type 4, also big into feelings like the 2 and 3. That type really does a lot of creativity and a lot of melancholic thinking as well. So, somewhat of a brooder, somebody who is artistic, and will sit with you in the dark, deep spaces of life. So, that might be you. Now, the type 5 is an observer-researcher, somebody who really does well to notice what’s happening beyond the surface, who’s not afraid to hit up against a wall and push through and find out how to get around it through their research and innovation, but they can mentally burn out as well.
Now, the type 6 has a huge ability to troubleshoot, to figure out what could go wrong, and to plan for it. They’re excellent at being loyal to those they love, and they at their best, have a lot of courage or they could say, “You know what? I’m too worried. I’m not going to do something.” The type 7 we know is joyful, enthusiastic, and loves to synthesize information to make things the most practical. They also love encouraging others and because they have such a big heart for so many things can get scattered. The type 8 is a powerhouse dynamic, also very good at clarifying, good at executing, good at energizing, and also defending others and helping in that way. But, of course, in that bigness can block out their soft heart underneath and make people think they’re a bit more difficult than they are deep down, very soft.
And then last but not least, the 9s are peacemakers. They’re so good at helping others to be thought of. They’re extremely thoughtful and good at harmonizing and excellent at diplomacy within a group or family but sometimes might even leave themselves out a little bit. So, those are all the nine types.
Brad Johnson: I see why you’re good at what you do. That was impressive. No wonder you host a podcast and write books on this stuff. Okay. So, I left a little piece of the story out. So, let’s circle as to why I invited Sarah on to this. So, one of the things, you referenced the launch experience. And so, at Triad, we joke we don’t do events, we do experiences because experiences are life-changing. That’s where the breakthroughs happen. Those are the memorable things in life, right? And early on to the Triad experience, finance is no stranger to a lot of events, lots of conferences, lots of learning. But Shawn and Aubrey, so Shawn is my business partner. Aubrey is his wife.
So, Aubrey and Sarah get together and they’ve been to a few of these over the years, and they’re kind of like, “Yeah, you know the problem with your guys in this industry is we’re basically kind of an afterthought in a lot of these situations.” It’s like, “Here’s Brad and Sean and all the financial advisors,” and then it’s like, “Hey, ladies,” or, “Hey, significant others, go hit the spa for a couple of days.” And it was awesome because they were a part of this and they were like, “What if we created an experience for the better halves and the spouses and significant others?”
And that was actually how you came into the Triad community because Sarah and Aubrey put together a better halves kind of their side of the experience and they’re like, “Well, the Enneagram spent huge for our community, our members. Let’s bring in somebody that can speak to it in marriage, business,” and it all goes together when you’re talking business and life. And so, I would love to hear just kind of how that session played out because we were in a different session at the time but how did the better half session play out? I don’t know, Sarah, if you want to jump in because you kind of helped create it or where we take it from there.
Sarah Johnson: Well, yeah. So, we found Christa because I followed you on Instagram and loved all of the content. And I honestly like we’ve been, to bring up therapy and all that, we’ve been in therapy for the last four years or so. And I think being familiar and diving into the Enneagram within that process has allowed us to grow to where we are now. So, I think it would have been a disadvantage if we didn’t have Enneagram while we’re trying to grow in our marriage. So, we noticed just getting feedback from some of our member spouses and significant others that the Enneagram was intriguing to all of them and their spouse came home saying they did the test. They talked about it with their team within the walls of the office.
And I think what’s so important in making the business successful is having just a solid foundation here within the home. And I think, Christa, you got to see some of that. You got to see some of the better halves come up to you afterwards. And, yeah, so you can tell us a little bit about your perspective from it. I know I enjoyed the session, but I was biased because I loved you and I picked you.
Christa Hardin: You’re so cute. Right. And I enjoyed it, meeting you guys. You’re like, “I’m a 7, but I’m also winging 6.” I’m like, “Okay. This is like perfect.” This spoiled me.
Brad Johnson: The perfect married couple, right, to invite you into the community.
Christa Hardin: Right. Not a coincidence probably in that way that we’re like, “Oh, we understand each other.” But I loved how at this session it was just a space for everybody to relax. And I think that that’s conducive to even those listening right now just if you’re struggling to concentrate and focus, even just looking around, how can you make your environment just a little more relaxing in this moment if you’re double tasking or something like that. And you just had such a beautiful place to really give your people a chance to feel safe as they process some of the deepest, most intimate layers of their life and marriage together.
And so, what I tried to follow up with to create in that space was to give them some grounding tips and hope for their partner’s type. I know that after the honeymoon years, there’s a lot of grueling work to be done in marriage, and I want to help people bring that joy back every single day together. So, I give partners chances to really hear that their spouse’s gifts or their partner’s gifts are truly enriching them and that they were given a chance to be with people different than them in their partners, their family, their teams so that they could be more expansive themselves. But that we would never want to change who each of us are in terms of trying to take that route and say, “I don’t like that you’re an 8 or a 2 or I don’t want to be a 7,” and instead, embrace our gifts too.
The other piece we really focused on in that session was my favorite part of the instincts part of the Enneagram, and that is the piece that talks about the self-preserving, the sexual, and the social instinct. And when you layer that piece of just how people survive along with their personalities, it’s so helpful because a lot of people are not grounded in how to even take care of themselves with some self-preservation skills. And if you don’t have that, you can’t do your Enneagram growth process because you don’t know where the next paycheck is coming from or you don’t have a sense, for your house is too chaotic or you don’t have any health and fitness going on. So, those grounding levels had to be the first place that we talked about before we could really get into that, like I said, deeper personality work.
So, we talked about that, the sexual instinct of how to connect together, and on a sexual and an intimate level, which includes surprise and which also includes attracting. And so, we talked about how to attract not just at once at the beginning because we auditioned, we got the part, but to keep attracting each other as partners. And then lastly, as they said, the social, what a beautiful gift as you lift up past self-preserving and just partner to partner, that’s great. That’s where most marriage programs focus but how can we serve the world? And I see that as such a big part of Triad as well. I got to really feel that vision that you guys have of helping many people the healthier you are. So, that’s where we connected.
Brad Johnson: Well, sounds like I missed out on some pretty cool stuff. Before long, people will be jumping out of the business session to go over into that session, it sounds like. So, your husband, Wes, was there, right?
Christa Hardin: He’s at the beginning and end of my talk but, yes, he came to the whole event.
Brad Johnson: That’s cool. And he hung out like he went to the Legends Night, right?
Christa Hardin: Yes.
Brad Johnson: Cool. I’m glad you guys just stayed and hung. That’s one of the things we love about Triad is when you come into the community, like we just want you to be a part of all of the experience. What Enneagram number is Wes?
Christa Hardin: Wes is a type 1 social. So, he focuses on the social instinct, helping as many people as he can. He’s a medical provider and he really enjoys the detail, the nuance that I talked about when I went through type 1 of helping to find that. But for those who go even deeper in the Enneagram, there’s an arrow piece of Enneagram too, which means I’m not only my type, but I relate to a couple of other types as well. So, type 1 goes to type 7 in health. And so, he spends a lot of time after these intense medical days of doing fitness and having as much fun and groups as he can. So, of course, Triad was just such a blast for him.
Brad Johnson: Good. Good. We’re glad he could 7 out at the Enneagram, which what’s interesting is a 7 goes to the unhealthy side of a 1 and stress, which is like the OCD run around the house and tell the kids to pick up all their stuff. And I’ve definitely been there before and Sarah has witnessed that.
Christa Hardin: Oh no.
Brad Johnson: And then a 5 in health, which is interesting, which is probably like the rabbit hole and kind of withdrawing and not needing to be at every party. So, one of the cool things, back to doing business and doing life, in our industry, it’s really cool because there are a lot of husband-wife teams to where they’re married, but they’re also working together, which creates a whole another dynamic, as I’m sure you’ve experienced before in your therapy sessions. I’m sure you’ve run into that before. In your book, you have a section where you talk about numbers like a 1 married to a 1, a 1 married to a 2. Maybe we start to dive into that because I think there’s a huge part of that that could be helpful to the listeners out there because there’s a lot of family dynamics in financial services practices. So, where do we start? I don’t even know. There’s a lot of dynamics going on there.
Christa Hardin: Well, there’s 45 possible pairs so I love, like you guys said, you’re a 6 and a 7. And the question everybody always asks me is, “What are the good ones?” And I know I got a bad one. And instead, I try to talk about it both in the book and always with clients, even this week many times, is we have a lot of different stages of a relationship, and I do use the term ‘glow’ to talk about them. But whatever you’re pairing at the beginning of your relationship, you come together and you see the beauty of your partner’s type and you see, you know very clearly they have something I don’t have.
As soon as they get into your heart, you’re aware, “Oh, my gosh,” and your friends and family are saying, “They’re bringing you to life in a way I’ve never seen before. They’re healing you.” Let’s use type 9 as an example. They are people who I said struggle to find their own voice because they’re so caring about others, and often, usually, their partner is excellent at bringing that voice out. And I just absolutely love to see my 9s get thought of. And yet after a while, as we all know, the honeymoon period ends after a few years, usually about five, and partners start to feel the harder pieces. We’ve seen each other’s stresses. Usually, with the onset of children, there’s more stress as marriages incrementally go down, and the bell curve of satisfaction in those years, they go back up after the kids leave.
But we also know we love our kids. It’s just that moms bring so much to kids. It detracts from the marriage. And then often dads are doing other things to try to bring up money. And so, even with dual-income families, you’re just seeing a lot of strain. And so, what really matters in those years is that you know you’re not alone, that your pairing is not bad, and that everyone goes through what I call throwing shade or shadows, and some even darkness. And so, that’s when I usually see my couples is at the beginning of the darkness or somewhere in the middle of it and they’re like, “Do we belong together?”
And the good news is, once you figure out how to get those instincts back in order, are you doing your self-care? Are you doing your sexual instinct well together? Are you balancing out social giving or do you have it all backwards and you’re trying to give out everything first and you’re trying to have fun together before you’re even taking care of yourself? Once we can align those things back with a healthy system, it’s just easier. It’s so much easier. People want to spend time together because they each are getting rest and self-care. They want to have date nights because they know that they’re going to be more pleasant. They want to give together because they can see once again we do have gifts, but we’ve also had these shadows and that’s normal and everyone has them.
And, of course, between the 45 pairings, this is what got me excited about Enneagram work for couples. There’s so many more tips that are going to be nuanced for each one. So, whereas the amazing work of John Gottman, emotionally focused therapy, some of the therapies you’ve probably done internal family systems, these are amazing and they have their place, but they generalize. And the Enneagram in the 45 different pairings gives us the ability to say, “Oh, for this person, they like a direct confrontation right away, right now. They’re reactive.” Sarah’s type being a 6, they want to solve it as quickly as possible. They don’t want to be thinking about it all day and perseverating on it. But somebody else’s type like a 9…
Brad Johnson: That sounds familiar.
Christa Hardin: I love that. A type 9 is like, “I need to think. I don’t even know what I’m feeling about this. I have no idea. I’ve never even given it thought before because I’ve been too busy thinking about what you need. And so, I’m going to need some time. If you really want to know what I think and you don’t want me to be stubborn and passive-aggressive, I’m going to need to go away for a bit.” And as you can imagine, if we didn’t have this lens, we wouldn’t be able to do that. So, we can talk about a few of the types if you like, or you might even have some other questions because I shared a lot there.
Sarah Johnson: Now, I think it’d be really beneficial if we went that way. I will say going back to the best marriage types, right, I guarantee you there are some 2s out there that will argue that they are the best pair.
Christa Hardin: Yeah.
Sarah Johnson: Give, give, give, give, you know.
Christa Hardin: Yes.
Brad Johnson: I’m trying to think how that would work with two 2s married to each other. It’d just be like, “No, I’ll do this for you.” “No, I’ll do this for you.” Sounds pretty amazing, actually.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah.
Christa Hardin: It is but there is a desire for attention. And so, I think we can talk about it. The best and easiest way is to think about the 2s, 3s, and 4s are heart types. Those 2s that we talked about caring and then we said the 3s care, but they do it through achieving. The 4s care through these deep dives. Any time you’re in a marriage with a heart type, they want and seek a lot of attention. So, if you have two of them, they’re like, “I want to be the center.” “No, I do.” So, they have this beautiful understanding when they get past that shadow season that, “Oh, we both crave attention because we both probably had some shame, neglect, even felt to neglect, even little T trauma neglect, just things that hurt us along the way.
And now that we know that we both are in the same boat with that, we can attune to each other’s needs a lot more than we used to and also feel okay about having our partner do that with us.” So, it’s really beautiful to see heart types together because you guys caught it. They actually can work together really well all day and that’s not like some of the other types. So, there’s nothing wrong with couples who need some separation through the day but most heart types like 2s, 3s, and 4s, any combinations together, once they find their stride together and learn that they both need a lot of attention and time and love, they can work long periods of time together.
Usually, I recommend six to ten hours of quality time together per week for couples, and I’ve had a lot of 2s and 3s, etc., tell me, “Oh, no, we have like 30-plus hours a week together and we love it.”
Brad Johnson: Wow.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah.
Brad Johnson: Interesting. Okay. So, we would be in the next group then. So, we’d be, what, 5, 6, 7, I would assume, as another Triad.
Christa Hardin: Correct. Yes. These are the head types and these are the thinkers out there. And so, these are investigators. They’re security-oriented. They do this in different ways. The 5, I told you guys, investigates and wants these deep dives and really needs time to process and will be quite passive-aggressive if they don’t want to do something. And I’ve learned over the years with working with 5s that sometimes if they don’t say anything, that means they don’t like it. And so, there are different strategies that each of these types will use. The 6 is more reactive, as I alluded to. They want to get it out there and it just to be known. And they’re passionate and they really need dialog and they need to know that the undercurrent is not going to get them later.
Like, “Okay, we just kind of did this halfway.” “No, we need to do this all the way so we don’t just run up into more trouble later.” So, they have a really great way of safeguarding, but sometimes they can extend out so far into the troubleshooting that they could negatively chain bad things that could happen. And then the 7, as we said, being so busy it’s liable to get lost. I was just doing some work with a 7 this morning and it was really beautiful to see the way that she was trying to grow but it was also frustrating to her 8 partner who was noticing some of the growth was being bypassed by just saying, “I don’t know what’s deeper. I don’t want to go deeper.”
And 7s when they do go deeper, they hit negative emotions. So, you’re hearing me say that all these types really seek security in different ways. And when they know this about their partner, there’s a sense of, “Oh, okay. If I make you feel safe, then we’ll be healthier as a couple. But if I don’t make you feel safe, there’s very little chance.” So, this goes for 5, 6s, and 7s paired together who kind of part of you knows this intuitively but when you really learn the Enneagram, you’re like, “Oh, yeah, I know it even more.” But also, if you’re married to a 5, 6, or 7, know they’re not going to be able to do anything with you unless they feel safe. And you guys can tell me if that’s true for your marriage and something you’ve noticed over the years.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. I think feeling safe is huge for me. Yeah.
Brad Johnson: The 7 side, it’s interesting. As Sarah said earlier, we’ve been in couples therapy for, is it four years now?
Sarah Johnson: Almost. Almost.
Brad Johnson: Nice.
Sarah Johnson: No. Or maybe over.
Christa Hardin: Yeah. Right around there.
Brad Johnson: No, actually. Yeah. Coming up on four years. I think that was our Valentine’s Day present to each other in 2021.
Christa Hardin: Sweet.
Brad Johnson: Yeah. We’ve got a whole another episode on why entrepreneurs should be in therapy, so go check that one out. But the interesting thing about 7s that you brought up for me, we avoid pain. We’d rather have fun. And it wasn’t too long into therapy. And it’s like the old reframe, which I think we’re masterful at. Well, the good news is, and I realize our therapist, Megan, showed us a video. It was a Brene Brown video on empathy, which Sarah told me for years I struggled with. She gave me that gift of sharing that with me. And it was really interesting because it was like you have to go down and sit in it, not try to fix it. You know, like when people share something with you as a coach, you’re like, “Oh, well, have you tried this or that or this?”
And sometimes people just want to be heard. And I think that was a lot of times where we would get in conflict. Sarah just wanted to be heard and wanted to be a safe place for me to sit there with it. And I was trying to fix. And she’s like, “I don’t really want you to fix right now. Just be here with me.”
Sarah Johnson: Or reframe.
Brad Johnson: Or, oh, well, but it could be worse if this happened or that happened, yeah. And then that would be super annoying. And so, I think the thing that the Enneagram has done for me is just, as Ian Cron says, self-awareness of just how you’re showing up in situations. And I think a lot of times, I just flat-out wasn’t aware. I wasn’t trying to show up that way. I just completely didn’t realize how it was. And we also process conflict very differently.
Tell me if this analogy hits. I feel like we’re the same coin, and we’re just almost like heads and tails on the same coin to where, like, I can have positivity to a fault sometimes, and sometimes, on the flipside of that, Sarah can overanalyze all the stuff that could go wrong and kind of get caught up in that loop. And it’s like when we actually meet in the middle, we complement each other really well. But when we are 0doing this tug of war, it can be a pretty wild tug of war. Do you think that’s an accurate… I mean, you’ve studied this. That’s kind of like how I frame it in my head, but…
Christa Hardin: Yeah, no, that’s very accurate for probably every 7 and 6 out there. And I think that, of course, we had the male overlay as well when you talked about fixing. So, you had the 7 that doesn’t want to do the painting. And men are socialized to fix and not to go deep. So, I love that you’ve been doing therapy and getting connected in the emotional spaces on both those levels.
But I feel like even female 7s too, as I mentioned earlier, myself and this other person I mentioned, we all in that space can struggle with wanting to feel safe through positivity. And as you said, okay, it’s not safe if it’s not positive, just as Sarah feels like it’s not safe unless we’ve troubleshooted everything. She’s not trying to be negative. It’s just her way of planning in case disaster happens, which in our crazy world, it often does.
And so, it’s a beautiful marriage because you have both pieces that are absolutely essential. And so, just if you ever get polarized, that’s where the problems come, is when you say, I’m not going to let you influence me anymore, I’m just going to lock in. I’m not going to be expansive. I’m not going to grow. I’m just going to sit here in my comfortable little bubble, and that’s not going to be fun or helpful. So, you’re going to lose both the joy and also, the helpfulness of the 6. So, I love that you’re together because you make each other better. You make each other see a side of the world that is not natural to you.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. And after we took the Enneagram and knowing I was a 6, I think probably, he looked at me like I was negative, a pessimist, a fun sucker, all of those things. And when I come up with a, well, this might happen, he looks at me and sometimes, he like almost smirks at me now. Like, he smiles, like, that’s your 6 coming out. But he has so much more empathy for me because he knows where it’s coming from.
And I, on the other hand, believe it or not, sometimes I take a deep breath before I, especially with my children, always saying, “Well, I don’t know if we could do that because of this, this, or this.” And then dad’s like, “Sure, we can have a slumber party.” So, I want to be the fun parent sometimes too. So, I think to myself, okay, we don’t always have to look at what could go wrong. Let’s go with the flow. And I think he has helped me with that. And knowing and identifying my number has helped that as well.
Christa Hardin: Wow. Oh, that’s beautiful. Yeah.
Sarah Johnson: We’ve had more slumber parties in this house because of that.
Christa Hardin: I love that.
Brad Johnson: So, yeah, 7s are known for just throwing structure out the window for a good time. And she, when you’re parenting three kids and they probably do need to get some sleep before school the next day, it’s helpful to like rain me in as well. And I think that’s the thing. I heard, I think it was Michael Hyatt said, sometimes, like relationships, you can get in this doom loop. And I think, I’ve seen it a lot. I mean, we went through a season where we were in a bit of that. Well, you call it like a shadow stage of marriage, like after the honeymoon’s warm-up.
And I think you put the stress of building a business on top of that and being married and being parents. And so, I’m curious, like your overlay of how does that impact, because you’ve got a lot of financial advisors listening in right now that are entrepreneurs and potentially married to their business partner, how do those stressors play out? And what advice would you give those listening in or are married as well as running a business together?
Christa Hardin: Oh, that’s a great question, you guys. I think that you guys doing therapy is a great model for your team, first and foremost, just letting people realize that we don’t have to carry the stigma anymore of doing self-growth. But now, It’s actually something recognized. As long as it’s a person you trust that you feel has good tools, that it can be phenomenal to just have growth spaces together, whether it’s through mentorship, couples you hang out with and go deep with that are healthy, that are for your marriage, individual, spiritual directors, therapists, all of that is a great starting place just to be able to say life is stressful and messy at times. And we need safe places to process.
That actually really helps us to also land in the space of when we’re in the marriage space and we’re feeling like, okay, we also work together, we have to say not only do we need the hard stuff, the therapy, we need to schedule in something fun. And you heard me mention 6 to 10 hours a week, and this goes for whether you guys are heart types together, thinking types together. I know we’re going to go through body types together, also, the 8s, 9s, and 1s, but basically, it’s these parts of us that need to play.
In marriage, we have that at the beginning so naturally and then, especially women are very practical, and I actually believe, one of my favorite authors, Tolkien, says men are the most romantic in many ways, even after the marriage. And that really struck me. But it’s actually true that women, we get so practical. Like, once you put a ring on it, we’re like, okay, I want kids now. I want the kids to do this. I want them to thrive. I want us to thrive.
And we can lose some of that sexual instinct romance and that can come out if you give yourselves a special sacred time every Tuesday night for you guys. Or maybe it’s every morning, you have a walk and then one time a date a week. But anywhere you can fit 6 to 10 hours for you and your partner that’s not about the business is so healthy and helpful. And I love to bring marriages all the way up to the top as a 7.
My husband’s also in that idealist group. There’s a lot of pairing groups in the Enneagram that we aren’t talking about today. But for instance, there’s one called The Idealist. And we like to have not just a good or average marriage, but a great marriage. And so, if you want a great marriage, then spending 6 to 10 hours outside of the regular every day isn’t really non-negotiable. If you can’t find six hours amidst 115 waking hours together, it’s going to be really hard to have that fun sexual instinct or playfulness or even like, you’re going to feel like, I don’t want to talk about conflict because we never even talk at all.
So, you’ve got to put the time in after the deep work or amidst the deep work, just time in for fun, for lightness. And then you already heard me say and allude to, well, when do you just kind of talk about like the little annoyances while giving yourself some time together where you go to bed together, even if one of you gets up later to finish up the work is excellent. Research is showing us that while we’re starting a business or doing big things, it’s not sustainable to be apart all the time. Maybe we do have to travel sometimes, but to come back with intention to make the next days ahead better and deeper and richer has to happen. But there really is no substitute for quantity of time together, is what you’re hearing me say.
So, again, you can have a few years where you’re like, we just had to do it. We had little kids or I had to work three jobs or medical school like my husband had. But just keeping in mind that, don’t let that last long because couples will say it doesn’t bother them in the earliest years and by 15 or 20 years, it’s ruined the marriage if they’re not bringing those practices together. And it doesn’t have to be every night going to bed together, doesn’t have to be every night eating dinner together. But these practices will enrich you guys for business building and for marriage long term.
Brad Johnson: What advice would you give? Because you mentioned kids and I kind of went back. There’s different seasons of kids. Like, we now have a 14-year-old, a 13-year-old and a 9-year-old. So, I feel like rather early chaotic where it’s like, newborn of waking up four times a night. But then you’ve got toddlers rolling around, like they’re going to fall down the stairs, you can’t turn your head and they’re off in another direction. But how would you layer on back to finding that six to eight hours for those that have kids and then there’s different seasons of kids? Like, how does that impact how all that plays out?
Christa Hardin: That’s so good. Well, if you’re pre-married or don’t have kids, it’s still important. It’s really hard for busy entrepreneurial couples even to do that. Like, the couple I already had today. They have no kids yet and they’re still working crazy hours. So, I just want to name it that finding the time is absolutely essential. And when those couples have better weeks and they’re talking about it, it’s because of that. It’s we did it. We set our boundaries and we found time together and we did business and we did life really well. And now, we’re not fighting. We’re having good times because we did that. So, just don’t discount yourself that you don’t need the time set aside. You still do.
And you could be like, if you’re a 7, you just want to be free with that time. You don’t have to always be structured, same restaurant. But as far as the little kid years, it will be harder. Sometimes you’ll have to cancel and that will be frustrating. And that’s where grit and discipline develop. But you will need to at least do the at-home dates and trade with friends and in-laws. Anyone who can help you, people at your community center, church, they will help you. There’s people that we found, godparents, just so many different people stepped in, friends that exchanged, and it was absolutely necessary.
We watched the couples who made it do that with tenaciousness. And the couples who didn’t make it didn’t do that. That’s where affairs come in so much easier because there’s people at work where fun and they’re not as bogged down by everything. So, you’ve got to keep doing the rhythms, even though you’ll fall apart sometimes. You’ll need a lot of grace.
And then you really named the middle marriage season that I’m really passionate about in these days of you do have the older kids, but by the time they’re 13, 14, and up, etc., it gets incredibly busy. And by the time they’re seniors in high school, you’re always on the go. So, you have to decide to do a lot of that together and decide it’s not just going to be the switch. I remember my calendar showing, it’s not only… and you guys have several kids too, but like, it’s not only that there’s two in different directions. There’s three and we’re outnumbered now.
And so, it’s like, it’s really hard to reach out sometimes to community. But that’s where your strength lies is the carpools with other moms and dads. And that’s where I said, if you’re taking care of you in your marriage, then reaching out socially is absolutely imperative. And it all kind of goes together so that you have people that you can just ask for things and then you’ll help them in different moments so that you two can do things together. Still, those date nights, still the 6 to 10 hours a week, which we do, and we’re in those seasons. We have a 19-year-old, 17-year-old, and 12-year-old, and we’re all over the place, but we still have our time too. You will be fine.
And then, of course, afterwards, this is the good news. The empty nest years are just much easier for couples. After they get through the grief and loss of like, we miss our babies, there’s a lot of marriage joys that renew. So, those are the stages.
Brad Johnson: Cool. Well, we may be reaching out again, as we… I definitely, I mean, one week, we looked at each other and were like, I don’t think we’ve had one night this week at our house, sports all over the place, but she loved it. But it can be a lot.
Christa Hardin: Yeah. You love them.
Brad Johnson: We should probably get to the last Triad. I don’t want to leave the, I guess, it would be the 8s, 9s, 1s hanging, right? Are you cool to dive into that?
Christa Hardin: Yes. And this is our biggest group. So, this group is really good at not only seeing with clarity, as I mentioned, with 8s, but all three, the 8, 9, and 1 are great clarifiers. They’re also great at justice fighting. They can, if they’re not as healthy, be very black-and-white thinkers, just like yes and no, right and wrong. And as they get a little healthier, they can say sometimes, there’s a gray area, but sometimes they really know there is a right and wrong. That’s like I mentioned, my husband’s in that grouping, and if he has to tell somebody they have a spot on their hip this week, he had to tell somebody that, a patient, it’s got to be told in a black-and-white setting, an x-ray, like this is seen. You need to keep investigating it.
But when this grouping comes around with love and grace, they can do it with less stoicism and hard facts and more gentleness, kindness. In that particular example, he was able to say, “Probably it’s nothing. Let’s check it out. Let’s always assume the best.” And I think sometimes people in this grouping, when they’re not as healthy, they’re a bit harsher. Even that 9 who I said is so thoughtful of others, they’re extremely able to hold a grudge too. And they can last a long time with resenting somebody if they feel they were done an injustice.
So, each of these types called the Body Triad needs actual body work to digest their anger and frustration with the world. They are justice fighters. That’s simply the way they’re made. And yet, they will need ways to process that so they don’t come off as abrasive to their families.
So, if you’re married to somebody in this grouping, you’ve got to appreciate the way they’re doing beautiful things in the world to make the world safe and healthy and good. But you also need to make sure if you’re married to somebody or you are this type, that you come into some softness and do your own work of healing your body so you don’t hold up all this anger and store it up everywhere you go.
Brad Johnson: Well, we’ve covered a lot. But I’m curious, I’d love to hear your perspective, Sarah, of just like, we’re over… it’s about as long as we’ve been in couples therapy, Triad has existed. And so, you’ve kind of lived this because my first 13 years in finance, I was an employee. I mean, I was in a similar business, but I didn’t have the pressures of everything, between me and the co-founder, the team, the finances, just the stress of being an entrepreneur. I’m curious on your side, like, how has the Enneagram impacted any of that in these last four years’ journey for you, made it harder in some aspects because you know kind of like my weaknesses and strengths or just maybe…
Sarah Johnson: You’re talking on a personal level?
Brad Johnson: Yeah.
Sarah Johnson: Well, yeah, like I mentioned before, in our therapy growth, I think it’s helped immensely. Also, like I said, I’m giving more empathy towards you. I don’t always think that you’re trying to make me the bad guy and you’re the fun guy because that’s how it feels as a 7 and a 6. I think it’s allowed me to kind of open up a little bit and not do the check-off where I can’t do it because of this, this, or this, this. I’ve noticed, like you said, when we meet each other in the middle a little bit, it’s like, it’s really pretty fantastic marriage. And we’re experiencing a lot of great moments and we’re doing it safely. Yeah, I need that.
Brad Johnson: Well, you know what? I just remembered, this was probably… So speaking of honeymoon phases, we had a honeymoon phase of Triad. Like, I think, any time you start a business as an entrepreneur, it’s like, oh, we’ll do it this way, it’ll be different, it’ll be better. I mean, that’s how businesses are born. And I remember we were in Nashville, and Shawn and Aubrey and myself, we were just like, oh, just go… we were on 1, and Sarah, the only 6 in the group, let me think. So, Shawn’s a 3, Aubrey is a 2, 7, 6.
Sarah Johnson: And with that, Aubrey was amazing. And starting this, she has been the biggest cheerleader, and go, go, go, rah, rah from the very beginning.
Brad Johnson: And I remember Sarah kind of saying, “Well, have you guys thought about this or this or this?” And in that moment, it kind of felt like she was raining on the parade.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. And I was, probably.
Brad Johnson: But also, me knowing just how she processes things, like had I not known she was a 6, had we not done any Enneagram work, I think I would have really been like, “What the hell?” Like, “Are you not on this team?” Or “What’s going on here?” And from knowing that, I just kind of naturally knew her wiring was she’s going to think about the stuff that won’t work out.
And by the way, 6s are, our general counsel is a 6. What a perfect person to have as a 6. Like, hey, let’s protect us from this, this, this, and this. And the differences can be a strength if you recognize them as that, but they can also be frustrating if you see it as just this tug of war, of this back and forth. And I think, early in our marriage, before we’d really known that, oftentimes when we got in conflict, it felt like a tug of war between a 7 and a 6.
So, anyway, if you’re in the out, I mean, we’re just kind of sharing everything here. But if you’re out there listening in and you’re one of the many married couples in this business, I can’t suggest be in Enneagram enough. It’s like, why we have like literally infused it into our community. It has made such a massive impact on our culture, at the team level, at the member level, at the marriage level, and it’s just been awesome, which is…
Sarah Johnson: And I think there’s so many people blinded and completely, we’re not self-aware. And I like to think, well, I’m self-aware, but Brad’s not. And then we read Enneagram and we’re like, oh, oh, okay. So, it really, truly does help with that becoming more self-aware and how people might perceive you or take in the information that you’re trying to give. And with that, the intent is different than the impact or, what does Megan say? What did our therapist say? It’s kind of like that.
Brad Johnson: Separate the way it was messaged from the intent or the meaning behind it.
Sarah Johnson: And what the impact could be. So, you have a better understanding of what the impact of your message might be towards your partner or your business partner, your team member, your children.
Christa Hardin: Yeah. And I want to just say we talked about this at the launch event as well, but the healthiest couples, we call them swan couples because they’re really obviously thriving together. They tell healthy narratives about one another instead of that fundamental attribution error of I’m healthier. So, like you said, the Enneagram gives you those wings to actually look in to see, wait, how are they healthier? I can’t see it right now. And it’s like, oh, yeah, this is what I’m going to tell myself.
So, that’s usually what I have my couples do, including today, is let’s stop those stories short when they start to run off and just come back to breathwork, take that nice deep breath, give yourself a time to pause, and remember what your partner’s actually doing to help you like you did with each other, Sarah, when you were saying, “Oh, my gosh, I really love that he brings me the fun. I need this. Positivity helps with neurogenesis, with brain growth, with everything good I want for our kids and family. I want them to trust.” And Brad, you’re like, I actually have some healthy pride around my wife’s gifts realizing she cares so deeply and she can celebrate and be emotional after we’ve secured that things will actually be good in the long run. So, I love that you got to both see that and do that about each other.
Sarah Johnson: Yeah. And I would say back to the Enneagram in Marriage, your book, I love the segment of diving it, like two pages of just mind-blowing stuff of just a 6 married to a 7. And you can go right there to what your spouse is and your partner and just…
Brad Johnson: It’s dog-eared, if you’re watching on video right there.
Sarah Johnson: It’s just such good content. And as knowing like, okay, what could be good here and what could maybe go wrong where the shadows, where we could fall into the shadows and how to get out of those? And so, I love that you had that section in your book.
Christa Hardin: I’m so glad.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, I think when we’re at our best, I heard a friend say this a long time ago and he said one of the keys to our marriage is we always build each other up. So, especially like when you’re in front of others, like we all have pros and cons, we all have strengths and weaknesses. But if all you ever do is focus on where your spouse falls short, especially if you’re doing that in front of others, just like cut them down at the knees, that sure is not going to be a great playbook for a long-term marriage. And we’ve had friends tell us, like, “You guys actually do a really good job of shining the light on each other.” And we’ve also gone through seasons where we didn’t.
Sarah Johnson: 100%.
Brad Johnson: And when you have just kind of that thought of like focus on the strengths, as you say, I’ve just found like, when we’re at our best, we do that really well.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, and you knew this.
Brad Johnson: Do you have any advice for couples out there that are maybe going through a tough season? At some point, it’s like, it’s tough to actually find the good stuff when you’re just kind of surrounded, and then one of those doom loops.
Christa Hardin: Yeah, I would say…
Sarah Johnson: Everything about the 7 drives you nuts, right?
Christa Hardin: Exactly.
Brad Johnson: What?
Christa Hardin: And when we’re healthy, sometimes we can do the work of being like, yeah, I know, I drive people crazy. Like, there’s that insight that I want everybody to have, too, is, again, this is our human tendency. We always think we’re above average in everything, just to realize, I don’t want to take myself down all the way, but I do want to understand that I need grace just like everyone else. I make mistakes, too, but I really think the big thing is to realize, I do need to know my partner’s weaknesses, but I don’t need to focus on those all the time, and I need to use the 5 to 1 ratio. This is the best ratio in all of the general marriage work that when we do see something that feels like to us, it needs correction or at least acknowledgment about our partner’s weaknesses, that we would use the 5 to 1 positive to negative ratio.
So, there really is something to positive thinking as long as you don’t omit what needs to be said to. And that looks usually like, I love this about you, I also love this and that about you. And even this has been such a gift to me over the years, but I just want to highlight that feels like we’re running too fast lately and maybe your 7 is not slowing down enough. Do you think we could look again at our schedule? Are you avoiding anything emotionally that we could talk about? And really, of course, if it’s a 7, we’re going to be like just for 30 minutes, not for like hours, but each of the types, you can do that with, to say, I’m noticing your type getting us, like, I know you’re a 2 and you love giving, but I’m noticing you’re not saying no lately and that’s been hard on our family. I know you’re an 8 and you mean to protect us all, but you’ve just been coming off as snarky to some of our friends and they’ve been giving us some looks.
These things are great windows for us to see that our spouse does know our stuff, but it’s paired with and really couched and sandwiched with so many other loving comments that we’re going to get the message through better. And lastly, I will add that when you do this, even if you’re 5 to 1 positive to negative, always expect a defensive response. That’s human nature. And it shows that your spouse has some stamina, some, “Hey, I feel a little bit of healthy pride here. You’re coming at me.”
So, just don’t come to them until you’re ready with your self-care and that self-pres instinct, that you’ve had some rest, you know you’re good. You’re going to get a workout or a date night and soon. And you come with that confidence. Not I’m exhausted, I’m cranky, I am on my last shard, and I’m coming at you. So, come with a healthy window, open tolerance. And then they will be a little defensive, but they will get the message after a pause and a reflection time later.
Sarah Johnson: That reminds me of our, which we also fail at and doing every week, but we’ve started with therapy about, I don’t know, maybe a year ago, just a weekly connect where we can share, like maybe what we are proud of for ourself this week or what we appreciate about our partner, and then sandwiched in that 5 to 1 is also, is there anything heavy that you’re even thinking about that might cause some distress between the two of you that we need to get? And then I think, just having that space, it lowers the defensiveness because you know we’re in an open communication, open forum, if you will. But that kind of just sounds like what you’ve just shared, that we’ve tried to incorporate.
And it helps us 6 not beyond, Brad, but sorry about the language, about like what we can fix, right, what we can make better and all of that, and I cannot save it up, but just like, I’ll get to talk to him about it this weekend. And if it’s still in my mind, I can. And half the time, it’s not, it’s passed. So, it’s helped me being the 6 that I am in our relationship, I think.
Brad Johnson: Yeah, the Sunday check-in is what we call it. And I remember at one point, we had the feedback question as the very first one. You remember that? And it was kind of like, “So let’s sit down and have a talk.” And I remember we went into our next therapy session. I was like, “Oh, that kind of sucked and I really enjoyed it.” And Megan’s like, “Let’s talk about some positives up top first, and then get into that.” And it’s back to the sandwiching, like I’ve heard the compliment sandwich, anybody that’s read up a management book, like, “Hey, you’re doing this well. Here’s something you can improve on. You’re doing this well.” So, it sounds like you’re just creating that for marriage and it’s like compliment or positive, positive, positive, maybe comp… or feedback, then end with the positive. Like, what would be your recipe to the 5 to 1?
Christa Hardin: It just needs to be surrounded. Almost think of it like the chewy center in the chocolate, that it’s kind of like, ooh, that weird little thing in the middle. I liked the outside better, but it was good to taste that little resin or whatever, like because that made me better. Okay, we could pretend that’s like a vegetable inside your chocolate.
Brad Johnson: It’d be like a whopper. Those things are horrible. So, it’s like if you get to the middle, it’s like, let’s…
Christa Hardin: Yeah, it doesn’t matter how you do it, but you should remember that. And then when we’re really not in conflict, honestly, the ratio goes up to about 18, 19 out of 20 positives to every 1 or 2 negatives. So, that just helps people to be aware that like day to day, try to be light and fun. And then like, you had this beautiful ritual, even though you’re not doing it all the time now, it’s in your toolkit now, and you and the couples listening can go back to that whenever you need. When you feel like we’re really missing each other lately, let’s go back to our Sunday check-in and let’s make sure we don’t start with the trouble first. So, I love that for you guys.
Brad Johnson: And we’ll throw… I’ll tell you what, we’ll throw our Sunday check-in questions in the show notes. So, if anybody’s listening and wants to borrow it, they can go for it. And Christa, I’m sure it was in the intro, but we’re going to buy a box full of these books, so the Enneagram in Marriage. And so, those of you listening in, and I’ve heard many rumors that oftentimes, spouses listen in because their financial advisor husbands or wives make them in the car. So, if you’re listening, you can request the book, too. And I’d love to just get this in more couples’ hands, and so, you can make a greater impact and improve some marriages out there.
Christa Hardin: Awesome. Thank you guys for doing that. I have loved my time here with you.
Brad Johnson: Well, thank you. I think this is your last business for the day. Well, though, this hasn’t felt like business at all, it’s felt like just an awesome conversation. So, Christa, I just want to say thank you. Thank you, Sarah, for finding Christa. This was all Sarah. And I’m glad you open that IG account. It’s paying off. And thanks for pouring into the Triad community. And I have a feeling we’re going to have some better halves probably asking to bring you back, so we’ll probably be in touch. So, thanks so much, Christa. I’ve really just enjoyed every minute.
Sarah Johnson: Thank you. Thank you for everything.
Christa Hardin: Oh, you guys, too. It’s been a delight. Thanks for sharing your beautiful glow out there.
Brad Johnson: All right. Till next time. We’ll see you.
